Champions Cup 2024

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658840#Comment_121658840

Number of wins in my opinion should be taken into account before points difference where teams are level on points.

I think Leicester getting 2 wins and a bonus point is better than Munster getting 1 win, a draw and 3 bonus points, the points difference criterion should come in after that if still tied on matches won in my opinion. Funny enough, it's the only case I can see throughout all of the ranking list, so it's hardly worth worrying about.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121659152#Comment_121659152

Should a Try BP be weighted higher than a Losing BP? Should away BPs being weighted higher than BPs achieved at home?

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121659241#Comment_121659241

There's merit that away performance could be treated with a preference where tied on other criteria.

There have been far fewer losing bonus points than try bonus points in the pool stage, so perhaps the losing bonus points should be weighted higher.

Losing bonus points might reflect a closer match, than both teams scoring a lot of tries but there not being a close contest.

sydthebeat

cant see any real reason why a 2 group system wasn't engaged for the last 16, solely to prevent teams from the same pools meeting.

if they had say pool A and B in group 1 and polls C and D in Group 2, the last 16 would have looked like this:

toulouse v leicester

leinster v racing

saints v sarries

bordeaux v munster

quinns v glasgow

bulls v LAR

stormers v lyon

exeter v bath

Podge_irl

Number of wins is the first differentiator in the URC for what it's worth. I think it has merit

Boscoirl

I also think your seeding shouldnt carry you through the comp with home fixtures

Yes let it work for the last 16. But have a draw for the QF and SF

winning an away knock game against a higher seeded team is a better achievement then topping your group imo

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660402#Comment_121660402

Doing that would reduce the jeopardy of the group stages even more

Exclamation Marc

The only way the problem is solved and to ensure some level of consistency is by making it a 16 team competition with two from each group progressing to a QF. It weeds out the worse teams out of the competition from the get-go and ensures a level enough playing field in the draw. 9 matches if you make it to the final which is only one additional match per team than the current system.

Having 24 teams is unwieldy and there's no way to place that many teams without some unfairness or issues somewhere in the format.

They'll never reduce it to 16 though so it won't happen.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657694#Comment_121657694

This is my feeling too.

People have transferred the weight of qualifying in the previous format to this one, ignoring that it isn't the same thing.

Teams with relatively poor records are getting through because there are double the amount of teams that make the knockouts. Having said that, good teams are still getting knocked out or barely scraping in.

The current format is far from perfect but in my opinion it has led to far fewer dead rubbers and more exciting fixtures.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660504#Comment_121660504

The problem isn't solved though with cutting it back to 16, you'd have less teams in that could contribute to the tournament.

We have 3 leagues, they each contribute 8, 4 pools of 6 teams, play each team once except from the team in the same league, it's as perfect a system as there can be, no need to change anything, except I think the ranking is a bit off if they reward points difference before they award matches won.

They only point against using matches won is could a team win the first two and throw the other 2, and another team could have 4 close matches and win 1 and draw 2 and end up on the same points. At least points difference does correct for a team not being competitive in all matches I suppose.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660551#Comment_121660551

There's a strong argument though that having each league contribute 8 teams is mismatched already though - given there are 16 teams in the URC, 14 in the Top14 and only 10 in the Premiership (for now).

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660667#Comment_121660667

Very hard to argue that there should be more teams from one league than the other, fewer teams or more teams doesn't necessarily determine quality of teams. To be fair, the pool stage is doing a good enough job of whittling the 24 teams down to the best 16 teams, so if one league were much weaker it would mean more teams from that league getting knocked out early on.

This pool stage resulted in:

Making the Challenge Cup: 2 URC teams, 1 French team and 1 English team.

Knocked out: 1 URC team, 2 French teams, and 1 English team.

Going further, the teams that qualified for away knockouts: 2 URC teams, 3 French teams and 3 English teams.

Teams that topped the groups: 1 URC team, 2 French teams and 1 English team.

All in all, looks like the current system of 8 teams from each league is working out fine, as in very even results.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660996#Comment_121660996

Yeah, but over time you'd have to figure the lower ranked English teams won't be adding a huge amount to the party. They're all a bit disproportionately stronger right now, because they all got the benefit of three teams collapsing and a sprinkling of those players across their squads. Naturally some have benefitted more than others, but it's definitely made a lot of English teams stronger in the interim.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121661020#Comment_121661020

Sure it's not really a problem if the poorer teams get weeded out during the pools anyway, so don't think the hassle of trying to allocate more and less teams from each league is worth pursuing. I'm sure if after a few more years it became apparent that one league was lagging there'd have to be a discussion around it.

eagle eye

Mad to think Leinster and La Rochelle meet again in the QF.

La Rochelle could take them in this one.

El Vino

Apologies if it has been answered before but has the pathway to the finals been determined.

i.e is 1/4 final winner of match 1 in Round of 16 Vs winner match 2 in Round 16? etc?

leakyboots

Put this in the Munster thread but probably belongs here too:

According to Opta, Alex Nankivell has the most defenders beaten in the pool stages with 31.

Nearest players (Thaakir Abrahams, Romain Buros, Doris) all on 18.

Exclamation Marc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121662029#Comment_121662029

Yep

leakyboots

Also, most turnovers in the pools (strong Irish representation here):

8 - JvdF

7 - Juan Martin Gonzalez, Cian Prendergast

6 - Ben Curry, Tadhg Beirne

5 - Gavin Coombes, Will Evans, Courtney Lawes, Denis Marchois

leakyboots

Coombes is near the top of the stats for metres, carries, turnovers and minutes according to a comment underneath the tweet I found that on. Wonder would he get the call-up if there's an injury in the backrow for 6 Nations

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663220#Comment_121663220

Where do you find these stats? I was looking for something like this yesterday but couldn't find anything on the Opta site.

I saw a star for metres made after contact and it was nearly all Northampton players and I was surprised not to see Nankivell.

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663238#Comment_121663238

I'd imagine VDF is a beneficiary of the tweaked approach that Leinster/Nienaber are implementing now. They're going after rucks in a way that they hadn't done previously. Not necessarily always going to poach but they're making absolute sh*te of opposition ball, hitting rucks late, dragging guys in, falling on the wrong side deliberately before rolling away etc. He has probably been given license to attack a poach more often than previously done also. Similarly, Will Connors has won a few breakdown penalties this season despite that not being his notable point of difference in the past.

The mantra under Lancaster was 'comfortable in chaos' whilst I'd imagine it's more akin to 'create chaos' now.

Buer

More concerning is the relatively low kicking success of our goal kickers across the tournament with the exception of Cooney (who is 100%). Frawley and Crowley are both 66%. Hopefully they nail any kicks in the 6N they've to take as success percentages that low could prove costly. Harry Byrne is higher but has fewer attempts and has had issues in the past himself; I wouldn't be any more confident in him nailing them than the first two.

AdamD

Conditions have been biblical for some of these games though. Crowley's % in the URC is very very high

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663672#Comment_121663672

Yep, this was doing the rounds recently:

https://twitter.com/AnalystGus/status/1748700521429406077

@AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663619#Comment_121663619

It's not something I'd be overly concerned about. As @AdamD points out, the Irish teams have played a huge amount of games in utterly atrocious conditions.

Another factor - the French and English teams seem more inclined to take penalties etc, whereas the Irish sides tend to decline penalties and kick to the corner more IMO. I think that skews it slightly that of the kicks the Irish kickers are taking, quite a few more are conversions (which can be from the touchlines) as opposed to penalty goals where the place kicker is very confident he has the range etc.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660546#Comment_121660546

Sorry to disagree....but the format... Its stupid! Mind blowingly stupid!! They had a format that worked. Not perfectly but it worked.

They've diluted what was once a great competition.

Its made me -a rugby lover- not be bothered in finding out how this format works. Its too confusing and long winded with the round of 16.

Go back to what it was. 6 Groups of 4.

Those back to back home/away games in DEC were brilliant.

They built up great rivalry within each group and cultivated competitiveness year on year.

And then a simple QF,SF,Final KO stage.

The more you change a competition the more people stop caring. Particularly one that worked!

We all know why they changed...they just cant bring themselves to go back to it origins. Typical!

Buer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121663941#Comment_121663941

I think there are probably a number of factors at play. The weather is absolutely a significant one. I don't think our guys are as bad as 66% but I would have concerns based on what I've seen from them in their kicking over the last several months with significant kicks being missed. I'd back any of them to rise to the occasion on any given day but there's absolutely a chance of a bad miss/connection too, I think.

We can see that the European success rate generally is far lower across the board than the URC including guys like Ramos who isn't in the URC. I'd imagine that the kicks in Europe are broadly more difficult than the URC with fewer tries being allowed under the posts, much higher pressure kicks and teams more willing to take a shot at goal in tight games (Leinster have kicked 7 penalties in the URC this season and 6 in Europe despite the huge disparity in game time). Which would suggest (to me) that it's closer to test circumstances.

I think the range point is fair enough but, Frawley aside, I don't think HB or Crowley actually have a great range. I wouldn't be overly confident of them landing penalties from anything around the 10m line or further out. They're both young enough though where a season of consistently being go to kickers could see them become great kickers as we've seen with a lot of guys in the past.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121664154#Comment_121664154

We can agree to disagree. I dont believe the previous format 'worked' and if we just decided to bring it in today people would complain even more.

A repeated complaint are missing the back to back games and the associated rivalry yet are currently complaining about repeat fixtures in the knockouts. It doesnt make sense, as getting an opportunity to knock out the side that beat you in the pool phase seems like a much better rivalry than two pool games.

People talk about unfairness with the new format but back in the previous days as soon as the teams were drawn you could point out which pool(s) was going to have a second place team go through from. That meant if you didnt have a chance to win then teams stopped caring. So many games were terrible towards the end of the pool phase due to teams knowing they were out, many multiples of the few games where teams sent weakened sides in the new format. From January onwards every game matters which wasn't the case before.

Feel most of the negative elements of the past are completely ignored because Irish teams went through our golden age during those years. This was the competition we all wanted put on a pedestal and wanted to win, and regularly did so refused to see the flaws. It isnt a surprise most English and French sides didn't prioritize it and many never truly bought in..

Blut2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121660996#Comment_121660996

Reduce it to 20 teams - 7 URC, 7 Top14, 6 Premiership. Slightly unfair on the URC, but probably the best compromise achievable. 8 of the 10 Premiership teams qualifying at the moment is a joke.

Then five groups of four teams each, the old home and away games. The two best teams in the group playing home and away around Christmas for the extra spice. The winner of each group goes through, along with the 3 best runner ups, to the QF.

Only one more game across the season than our current system, but a far easier to understand system overall. And a lot more group qualifying drama like we used to have before the current mess.

The vast majority of fans have either no understanding, or no interest, or both, in the group stage of the current mess. Its a huge regression from the previous format.