Teaching about Gender

Bobtheman

I have no strong opinions about this except that perhaps there is too much focus on it. I have yet to meet a trasngender Pupil. I dont thinik its that common but every case seems to be in the papers .

I know there are plans to alter the curriculum to teach this at Secondary. Gender studies. Personally, I think it should not be taught at Primary because kids are too young but Im open to be convinced otherwise.

Has anybody already taught this?

I dont want a thread on wheher a transman is the same as a biological man etc just whether its been taught already. In some form

2011abc

Careful now , apparently there’s room in Mountjoy for uppity teachers with opinions .In our place there seem to be loads of ‘trans’ students , some nice ,genuine kids and some attention seekers trying to ‘jump on the bandwagon ‘ who would identify as zebras if they saw it in TikTok

I'm totally against teaching it.

It's indoctrination. A new cult or religion.

Bobtheman

I won't reach it because I do not think it's a totally established thing.

What I mean is we do certainly know there are people who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

What we have not agreed on is a trans male the same as a biological male.

We have also not agreed that adolescents should be taken seriously on this issue.

Until the two questions are legally established we should not proceed.

Rosita

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120524547#Comment_120524547

Regarding your middle paragraph on what "we have not agreed"; that ship has sailed.

The Gender Recognition Act 2015 was put through before this topic was mainstreamed at all. People from the age of 16 up can apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate so there too has been an acceptance legally at least that adolescents can indeed be taken seriously on this. Things have moved on considerably more than many people realise.

I'm just pointing out the legal reality rather than arguing one way or the other. Without impinging on what I just said, it can be assumed that teachers will be inadequately prepared for this by people who are inadequate in the area themselves and just promote whatever is in vogue. A few years back it was literacy, numeracy, etc. Then it was group work.....

am_zarathustra

I find it's less of an issue than people make it out to be. We would have a lot of trans kids, just by reputation, being the only mixed school in the area and our ethos. Vaping is a much bigger problem. I actually forget that some of the kids are trans or I've never knows them as other than their presentation now.

In fairness, staff had anxiety around it initially, but largely from a place of worry and care for the kids, a far cry from the response we see by certain people standing outside schools. Staff mostly asked for some training and a bit guidance, very reasonable. If your school hasn't had students before there is a bit of a learning curve, for some more than others but I've found people to be fantastic. We are a few years down the road and it really is a non issue.

Generally, it's a private issue. It's good to explain it to kids so they understand and don't unintentionally hurt people. I tell them to respect the Muslim kids fasting too but I'm not worshipping Mohammad. Most teachers separate these things very easily in their heads. I think the general response from education staff in general shows most are coming from a place of empathy, which is actually very comforting.

LittleBrick

Given that violent crimes against the LGBT+ community have increased significantly in the last 2 years, I think it is an important topic to teach - if only to counteract the misconceptions that have arisen due to the left vs. right wing media frenzy we currently have happening.

Basically a "this is what it means, it is a real, medical thing (gender dysphoria), and we shouldn't hate people who identify in a certain way".

I would get into a debate over trans people in sport etc. as these are more nuanced, but teaching a general "it's who people are, don't be a dickhead about it because you saw someone on Twitter making up a fake example of one dangerous trans person" is extremely important.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120524650#Comment_120524650

Interesting I was not aware of that act

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120526844#Comment_120526844

I would agree on that. That it should be taught the basic idea

FoxForce5

How would science teachers teach reproduction if they cannot say the female when differentiating from male in the reproduction cycle. Wouldn't they be subject to sanction if they stated that females give birth and not males when it is now government policy that "person's' give birth?

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528900#Comment_120528900

You are trolling

Bobtheman

I think it's fair enough to explain basic gender dysphoria.

But I think the broader rights issue is a minefield and bar stating the law it's best to avoid.

The consent issue /porno issue will in some respects be more complicated and apply to a way bigger number.

It's all going to be very tick the box as you could spend months talking about it and various legal aspects etc but let's face it that won't happen

But when Johnny is dragged before a court or going to rehab for porn addiction we can safely say we ticked a box

Wanderer78

this is a very tricky one, trans economist deirdre mccloskey has said she knew from a very young age that she was in the wrong body, since she was born in the 40's, talking about this was a major no no, for most of her life, until she eventually changed in the 90's, at that stage she was long term married with kids, changing caused major problems in her family, and of course a collapse of her marriage, and her relationship with her kids. maybe if she was thought at a young age, its okay to feel as such, it could have prevented such turmoil for a family, thankfully she seems to have mended her relationship with her kids, but of course her marriage is long gone, even though she still calls her ex wife, the love of her life, theres something serious to be learned there!

FoxForce5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528911#Comment_120528911

Do science books not mention the word female/woman in reference to reproduction? they did in my day.

Bobtheman

I think we are a long long way away from the text book changes you are talking about and they probably won't happen

FoxForce5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529061#Comment_120529061

Just had a quick gander the kids active science JC book. Has multiple references to female/woman / mother in relation to sexual reproduction and anatomy. So if I'm reading this correct the sphe? Teacher will tell the students that a man can have a vagina, breastfeed and give birth, meanwhile across the hall the science teacher will say the opposite?

TheValeyard

Everyone will be taking a common sense approach to this. Same as other parts of the SPHE curriculum.

I am holding fire on this until I see the text of it. Teaching gender issues, dysphoria, trans issues, all fine makes sense. These people exist in the real world so students should be educated on it.

Anything however that's a plain lie or acting as some sort of sudosciecne in relation to gender or biological sex would be stamped out fairly quickly

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528943#Comment_120528943

Good point but I won't go near it with a barge pole. I also think that the government is ticking boxes because there is huge anti trans propaganda out there on social media and kids are way way more sceptical of teachers than in the past.

The government needs to inform people. Tackle social media.

Parent's - God forbid they might be asked to parent and teach kids!

FoxForce5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120529169#Comment_120529169

Have you seen either side in this debate show an ounce of common sense ? I don't envy teachers in Ireland seeing the **** show that's happening in the US,Canada, Oz,NZ and UK. Anyone who thinks we will be immune to this is naïve.

sonar44

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528943#Comment_120528943

If a transgender person is 'in the wrong body' then in what way is someone who has downs syndrome, for example, in the correct one?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528886#Comment_120528886

And thats all that is actually being proposed when there is discussion on teaching about it at primary schools. Age appropriate information.

am_zarathustra

I teach science, I've taught science to trans kids.......again, I'd have more issues with kids coming in without homework than tying myself in knots about teaching science.

Also to the person above dragging DS individuals into this, whom I also teach, this is a Trisomy, a third c/some 21. Interesting, when I teach cytogenetics, I find the kids are very interested in the other trisomys like xxx (superfemale) or xxy (klinefelter's), we often discuss the fact that a suprising percentage of people are neither male or female by our very narrow general view. Most science teacher would be pretty comfortable with this, as it's a scientific fact. The kids are super around this and manage to be far more respectful than many adults thankfully. Comparing or contrasting these very real, complicated issues that students have to navigate is a cheap shot.

We have taught content like this for years in the school. I completely understand being nervous initially and training should be readily available to help with that (if this is done correctly) but it really does just become a part of the normal discourse after a few years. Not that there still aren't difficulties occasionally but it wouldn't make the top 20 in our school any week.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120533683#Comment_120533683

Trismoy? What is that?

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534026#Comment_120534026

Three copies of a chromosome instead of 2 which most of us have. You would have 2 chromosome 21s but person with Down's Syndrome would have 3. It's a good area to introduce the complexity of human sex designations, the very binary XX XY doesn't hold up scientifically. You always end up with questions from the class around the c/somal variations so it's often a good time to explain a little about the variety that exists in humans. They are always rivited by it so it can be an easy win in getting the topic taught and allowing them to ask questions they might not otherwise. It's come up in teaching gender roles in Home Ec too. Again, it was really only at the start this was an issue, and staff really wanted to get the words right, learn the vocab properly ect, we had a good mix of staff so that helped too with some a lot more experienced or comfortable from their own life experience. As with any social issue, you dont know where the kids (or staff) are coming from that morning so approach carefully and with lots of empathy.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534684#Comment_120534684

XX and XY does hold up scientifically, everything else is an anomaly where something went wrong.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534684#Comment_120534684

I'm stíl Lost but I haven't done science since 1985

Are you saying that some males have female chromosomes and vice a versa?

am_zarathustra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534737#Comment_120534737

Human genetics is awash with variation, it's a central tenent, without variation you wouldn't have evolution. It's generally people with a cursory knowledge who think it's so black and white, no scientists I know believe this. Hormones are turned up and down, promotors acting as dimmer switches on almost all genes. Hormonal changes during gestation can have massive effects. Its a messy thing Biology, especially developmental biology. Every variation doesn't have to be negative and we don't have to stigmatise people for being a little more different. That narrow view of humanities differences is actually very sad. Who are any of us to decide what is right or wrong?

XX and XY are typical, that's all. You yourself could have one of the other varients or someone in your family and you wouldn't know. Things are just not that clear cut and the more we learn the less clearcut they are. The first person to have a genetic "abnormality" as you term it in duplicating the lactose gene led to most genetically Irish people being able to process milk products as adults and therefore survive the winters. Many of us are decendents of these people, lucky our ancestors had the variations to survive harse winters!

am_zarathustra

@Bobtheman yeah, kind of. It's a very expansive area of research. So typically people are XX or XY.....so all fetuses are technically female until the y c/some kicks in a few weeks into existence and starts to make small changes. Extra (so 3) or not enough (so 1) chrosomes are usually lethal, you have to have 2 of chromosome 1 or 2 ect or the feotus won't be viable, often a cause of early miscarriage. There are a few exceptions like Down's syndrome (c/some 21 is small and more involved in late development). So a feotus that is (1, 1, 1) will not be viable beyond first term, but (21,21,21) or (X,X,X) will be.

Sex c/somes are different though. So really humans just need one X, that's all everyone has to have for viability. So there is more scope for change, you can actually just have one X (turners syndrome). Most of these are pretty asymptomatic or have subtle indicators like I crease height or hip ratio. It would often only be when someone goes to have kids they even find out but it doesn't mean they can't always. With sex c/somes you can have, XX, X0(one X), XXX, XXY ect, then you can also gave bit of the y c/some either there or not, again leading to complex presentation. You sometimes hear the 1% number around, with all the different variations it probably is roughly correct or a little higher. So maybe one in 100 or even 60 people you meet is not quite neatly XX or XY. I could spend the day arguing the different stats but somewhere in that margin.

It's mad what we know now. In 1985 we could literally just look at c/some through a microscope and count. We had no sequencing or protein analysis worth talking about, only really big variations were seen, subtle but often powerful alterations couldn't be identified.

Trying to keep up with the science is hard too, you have to constantly go a check where the field is, this is hard if you don't have a background in it. I do think more training for staff would be great around these topics, not everyone even has the time to do the research. The more we get kids to understand the world is full of difference and that's a wonderful thing the more I'd hope we all become a little kinder. All of these are concepts until a real human is in front of you struggling.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528935#Comment_120528935

It should be taught as theory - but then, as with all theories, it should be balanced. Take for example:

What I mean is we do certainly know there are people who feel trapped in the wrong gender.

This is fact. Most people know and accept this.

What we have not agreed on is a trans male the same as a biological male.

This is opinion, and while I believe it should be taught, it should also be taught to kids that this IS an opinion and they have the right to agree or disaree with it.

Saying 'we don't know so we shouldn't teach it' sounds to me a bit daft because there is a huge amount of stuff science doesn't know - we should still teach it, but with that baseline: 'we don't know for sure because either we have a) different opinoins, or b) not enough research'.

To me, your stance sounds a little too much like sweep-it-under-the-carpet which an age of internet-savy teenagers is dangerous. Would you rather the kids get the info from a teacher or from a twitter/instagram/tiktok infliuencer? Because them not getting info is not going to happen.

I'd also like to see people directly effected by this giving input (not nessecarily teachers) - people who have transitioned, people who have transitioned and regretted it, people who agree with the a transman is a real man, people who don't, and so on.

Bobtheman

I have since read a decent criticism of the whole trans movement. There isn't a huge amount of science behind it.

Trans-when Ideology meets reality by Helen Joyce

Seemingly a man can declare himself a woman without any operation and expect to be fully accepted as one.

Thankfully in Ireland, we have avoided giving kids puberty blockers. The vast majority of kids who feel trapped in the wrong body grow out of it and become simply Gay.

Bar teaching the very basics-this should be avoided.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534827#Comment_120534827

Im not quite sure what this implies for Trans. Could you explain it for me?

A man who is biologically born a man remains a biological male at heart even after an operation despite whatever chromosomes he has. Despite outward appearances

I have no issue calling him /her etc but beyond that im not sure

Bobtheman

As to Scientific arguments-Id like to hear them. Credible ones because I cant see any that proves that inherent sexuality can be wished away. The trans movement conveniently ignores the fact of autogynephilia where a man will get aroused by wearing women's clothes -do you know any ordinary woman who this happens to-but yet some of them transition? Because the Gatekeeping that would stop these men from transitioning was circumvented. Because studies showed that for a lot of these men-it was simply a fetish-they fitted it into their lives. They might even grow out of it but the distinction has been buried.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120616261#Comment_120616261

Well. It's a bit difficult to discuss science with someone who thinks gender and sexuality are the same thing, so...

Bobtheman

OK my apologies. Gender can have separate issues from sexuality but they are not totally separate. Proceed with a scientific argument that a biological man can just declare himself female and expect to be taken as such. Fully in a legal sense and have access to all things female.

There isnt a credible argument so I won't wait around

Bobtheman

My main point was that men who got aroused wearing women's clothes were transitioning without any real exploration of their condition. The gate keeping is pretty useless

But gender and sexuality are linked

Furze99

God help teenagers (and teachers) these days trying to navigate all this. I'm quite sure for many girls and boys that they have little doubt as to what they are. It's those that are a bit confused and immature and reading/ seeing/ hearing all the messaging that you'd fear for and in writing that I think back to my own teenage years. No harm with experimentation but no child should be encouraged to take steps that will affect them physically & mentally for the rest of their lives. The first principle should be 'Do no harm'.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120619629#Comment_120619629

Proceed with a scientific argument that a biological man can just declare himself female and expect to be taken as such. Fully in a legal sense

/\ /\ Why? I never claimed this...?

How about YOU proceed with an elaboration of your stance thar gender and sexuality are connected? What do you mean by this? Can you provide a scientific link proving it?

Bobtheman

Best to park the discussion for the moment. I want to finish reading the book. I wasn't challenging you per sé. It was a general question.

You can goggle the connection between gender and sexuality if you like and get the information. Obviously they are separate things but not mutually exclusive

I'm not having a go at you or anybody. My apologies if it came out like that.

I will finish the book by Helen Joyce and review it later.

But so far she makes a convincing case why the trans movement is inherently unscientific.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120620282#Comment_120620282

Yeah, you're playing Russell's Teapot a bit here (I.e. - shifting the burden if proof when you can't prove a claim you made yourself).

Someone makes a claim and you expect them to back it up scientifically - fair enough.

But when YOU make a claim and SONEONE ELSE asks you to back it up, you jus tell them to Google it....??

Doesn't seem consistent.

gaiscioch

Not so much a gender issue but a 'Relationships and Sexuality' issue. I teach that as part of SPHE. It's mildly annoying in its predability to have the same tittering and jokes from the students each year about the same topics. I was using the The Facts dvd from the HSE (those evidently dangerous heretics). I let it play on about ovulation and all the other stuff, and then I finished on the part about STIs.

A couple of days later the person over SPHE came in to say that I shouldn't have used that video for that Junior Cycle year and that it was "inappropriate" especially to tell them about STIs. I was left in no doubt that a parent had... complained. 2023, not 1923!

What is wrong with some parents? The school, for its part, needs to tell such parents to cop themselves on. Simple. It's also complete puritanical bollocks to expect us to be "sensitive" to hocus-pocus "moral" issues. Ovulation happens, STIs happen. Tell the kids why and how. Enlighten them. This should not be complicated by the existence of abject fúckwits who are now going under the description of 'parent'.

Placating moron parents should have no place in a school subject. What next, Fine Gael parents contacting the school because they're not comfortable with the Blueshirts being discussed on the history course in an election year? Or Sinn Féin parents... or British parents....😄

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622766#Comment_120622766

Ooh, you're going to have the 'parents rights' brigade after you, now!

The problem is people still see teenagers as children and relationship education as sex. So sex for children, grab the pitchforks.

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622854#Comment_120622854

We spent years with the church teaching morality and sex education in schools and have replaced it with the government teaching morality and sex education in schools. In a true republic, teachers should not be teaching sex education or morality. That is the parents job regardless of their questionable beliefs. I shiver at the thought that kids will be thought morality and sex education by a state that refused to tell women they had cancer, bans homosexuals from giving blood, restrict their citizens for 2 yrs while they are exempt from the rules.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622877#Comment_120622877

It's relationships, not morality.

The problem is, patents sometimes refuse to teach nessecary information (or teach dangerous misinformation) under the guise of religion and you get homophobic attacks like the ones seen in Navan earlier this week.

You're stance merely endorses a church to carry on doing what you say it's been doing wrong for decades.

It needs a neutral, secular, scientific-based syllabus.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120621204#Comment_120621204

OK my apologies. Jaysus tea pots. I was unclear. Men who cross dress for arousal is a sexuality issue but it often gets used as a gender issue which it shouldnt. These men often go towards gender reassignment and the whole arousal issue is brushed under the carpet.

As to kids it's often latent homophobia that pushes kids towards sex changes. They should not be taking puberty blockers as they are too young to make life altering choices.

I have come to the conclusion that we should not be teaching it as the science is really not there. A biological male or female can't be completely erased by an operation.

Bobtheman

But I'm gonna finish the book and perhaps read a few others

Bobtheman

If its a scientific syllabus then trans gender should not be in it as there is very little science behind it.

It seems schools are now meant to solve all social problems as well as teaching kids to read, write etc

Parents are seemingly useless creatures.

Give them the information (Parents) and get them off Netflix etc

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622892#Comment_120622892

We have no idea if religious parents were involved. Homophobia is alive even among the heathens.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622766#Comment_120622766

Ahem.. I'd remind you that parents are regarded as the primary educators of their children in the constitution... they're not morons.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622894#Comment_120622894

Not really a scientific explanation, is it?

Cross dressing is not transgender, a lot of times it's not even sexual.

As for the 'latent homophobia' ...? That's just bizarre. Elaborate please on this opinion. Scientifically, if you don't mind. Without asking me to.google something because ypu can't explain it yourself.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622907#Comment_120622907

Fair point - but f it wasn't, it proves my point even more that parents aren't educating.

I'm also curious (genuine question not related to your post) where the homophobia came from, if not religion? Parents? Media? If so, what media?

Is this the latent homophobia ypu spoke of in your previous post?

Str8outtaWuhan

Teaching based on science alone is a very very dangerous road. Simple example : if humans are mammals and using modern mammalian speciation theory then a white man living in west Kerry and a black man living in Ethiopia's rift valley are separate species!! . There is a reason why science stays away from the idea of "race" . I would argue that morality is the basis for all human relationships not visa versa so by teaching rse you are teaching kids how to behave. That is not the job of the state and just because what is taught gits your outlook, just remember it won't always be thus.