Teaching about Gender

Bobtheman

As to Scientific arguments-Id like to hear them. Credible ones because I cant see any that proves that inherent sexuality can be wished away. The trans movement conveniently ignores the fact of autogynephilia where a man will get aroused by wearing women's clothes -do you know any ordinary woman who this happens to-but yet some of them transition? Because the Gatekeeping that would stop these men from transitioning was circumvented. Because studies showed that for a lot of these men-it was simply a fetish-they fitted it into their lives. They might even grow out of it but the distinction has been buried.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120616261#Comment_120616261

Well. It's a bit difficult to discuss science with someone who thinks gender and sexuality are the same thing, so...

Bobtheman

OK my apologies. Gender can have separate issues from sexuality but they are not totally separate. Proceed with a scientific argument that a biological man can just declare himself female and expect to be taken as such. Fully in a legal sense and have access to all things female.

There isnt a credible argument so I won't wait around

Bobtheman

My main point was that men who got aroused wearing women's clothes were transitioning without any real exploration of their condition. The gate keeping is pretty useless

But gender and sexuality are linked

Furze99

God help teenagers (and teachers) these days trying to navigate all this. I'm quite sure for many girls and boys that they have little doubt as to what they are. It's those that are a bit confused and immature and reading/ seeing/ hearing all the messaging that you'd fear for and in writing that I think back to my own teenage years. No harm with experimentation but no child should be encouraged to take steps that will affect them physically & mentally for the rest of their lives. The first principle should be 'Do no harm'.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120619629#Comment_120619629

Proceed with a scientific argument that a biological man can just declare himself female and expect to be taken as such. Fully in a legal sense

/\ /\ Why? I never claimed this...?

How about YOU proceed with an elaboration of your stance thar gender and sexuality are connected? What do you mean by this? Can you provide a scientific link proving it?

Bobtheman

Best to park the discussion for the moment. I want to finish reading the book. I wasn't challenging you per sé. It was a general question.

You can goggle the connection between gender and sexuality if you like and get the information. Obviously they are separate things but not mutually exclusive

I'm not having a go at you or anybody. My apologies if it came out like that.

I will finish the book by Helen Joyce and review it later.

But so far she makes a convincing case why the trans movement is inherently unscientific.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120620282#Comment_120620282

Yeah, you're playing Russell's Teapot a bit here (I.e. - shifting the burden if proof when you can't prove a claim you made yourself).

Someone makes a claim and you expect them to back it up scientifically - fair enough.

But when YOU make a claim and SONEONE ELSE asks you to back it up, you jus tell them to Google it....??

Doesn't seem consistent.

gaiscioch

Not so much a gender issue but a 'Relationships and Sexuality' issue. I teach that as part of SPHE. It's mildly annoying in its predability to have the same tittering and jokes from the students each year about the same topics. I was using the The Facts dvd from the HSE (those evidently dangerous heretics). I let it play on about ovulation and all the other stuff, and then I finished on the part about STIs.

A couple of days later the person over SPHE came in to say that I shouldn't have used that video for that Junior Cycle year and that it was "inappropriate" especially to tell them about STIs. I was left in no doubt that a parent had... complained. 2023, not 1923!

What is wrong with some parents? The school, for its part, needs to tell such parents to cop themselves on. Simple. It's also complete puritanical bollocks to expect us to be "sensitive" to hocus-pocus "moral" issues. Ovulation happens, STIs happen. Tell the kids why and how. Enlighten them. This should not be complicated by the existence of abject fúckwits who are now going under the description of 'parent'.

Placating moron parents should have no place in a school subject. What next, Fine Gael parents contacting the school because they're not comfortable with the Blueshirts being discussed on the history course in an election year? Or Sinn Féin parents... or British parents....😄

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622766#Comment_120622766

Ooh, you're going to have the 'parents rights' brigade after you, now!

The problem is people still see teenagers as children and relationship education as sex. So sex for children, grab the pitchforks.

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622854#Comment_120622854

We spent years with the church teaching morality and sex education in schools and have replaced it with the government teaching morality and sex education in schools. In a true republic, teachers should not be teaching sex education or morality. That is the parents job regardless of their questionable beliefs. I shiver at the thought that kids will be thought morality and sex education by a state that refused to tell women they had cancer, bans homosexuals from giving blood, restrict their citizens for 2 yrs while they are exempt from the rules.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622877#Comment_120622877

It's relationships, not morality.

The problem is, patents sometimes refuse to teach nessecary information (or teach dangerous misinformation) under the guise of religion and you get homophobic attacks like the ones seen in Navan earlier this week.

You're stance merely endorses a church to carry on doing what you say it's been doing wrong for decades.

It needs a neutral, secular, scientific-based syllabus.

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120621204#Comment_120621204

OK my apologies. Jaysus tea pots. I was unclear. Men who cross dress for arousal is a sexuality issue but it often gets used as a gender issue which it shouldnt. These men often go towards gender reassignment and the whole arousal issue is brushed under the carpet.

As to kids it's often latent homophobia that pushes kids towards sex changes. They should not be taking puberty blockers as they are too young to make life altering choices.

I have come to the conclusion that we should not be teaching it as the science is really not there. A biological male or female can't be completely erased by an operation.

Bobtheman

But I'm gonna finish the book and perhaps read a few others

Bobtheman

If its a scientific syllabus then trans gender should not be in it as there is very little science behind it.

It seems schools are now meant to solve all social problems as well as teaching kids to read, write etc

Parents are seemingly useless creatures.

Give them the information (Parents) and get them off Netflix etc

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622892#Comment_120622892

We have no idea if religious parents were involved. Homophobia is alive even among the heathens.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622766#Comment_120622766

Ahem.. I'd remind you that parents are regarded as the primary educators of their children in the constitution... they're not morons.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622894#Comment_120622894

Not really a scientific explanation, is it?

Cross dressing is not transgender, a lot of times it's not even sexual.

As for the 'latent homophobia' ...? That's just bizarre. Elaborate please on this opinion. Scientifically, if you don't mind. Without asking me to.google something because ypu can't explain it yourself.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622907#Comment_120622907

Fair point - but f it wasn't, it proves my point even more that parents aren't educating.

I'm also curious (genuine question not related to your post) where the homophobia came from, if not religion? Parents? Media? If so, what media?

Is this the latent homophobia ypu spoke of in your previous post?

Str8outtaWuhan

Teaching based on science alone is a very very dangerous road. Simple example : if humans are mammals and using modern mammalian speciation theory then a white man living in west Kerry and a black man living in Ethiopia's rift valley are separate species!! . There is a reason why science stays away from the idea of "race" . I would argue that morality is the basis for all human relationships not visa versa so by teaching rse you are teaching kids how to behave. That is not the job of the state and just because what is taught gits your outlook, just remember it won't always be thus.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120623028#Comment_120623028

This is why I said previously. It needs to be taught as theory, but with evidence-based support fircthose who need it.

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120623137#Comment_120623137

That's how fundamentalist Christians justify the teaching of intelligent design in schools because "it's just a theory" like evolution. Btw there is evidence to support Id , it just happens to be the same evidence to support evolution 🤣

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120623153#Comment_120623153

Btw there is evidence to support It

Support what?

Better something be as taught as theory than just swept under the rug and ignored. But science is honest about this: it doesn't claim to know everything.

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120623161#Comment_120623161

Support Id (intelligent design). If you use the scientific method to teach about gender, then brilliant. But one must be open to the fact that it might fail that examination. In religion they don't use the scientific method to teach about the existence of soul because despite billions claiming they have one , it's not provable from a scientific pov.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120623366#Comment_120623366

What examination might it fail?

We know what gender dysphoria is. We know the issues it causes, we know people who transition usually (not always) feel happier, and we know a lot of them say there felt that they were born in the wrong gender since they were kids, correct?

Bobtheman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622962#Comment_120622962

God almighty you are pedantic. Get over being asked to look something on goggle. I apologised to you but you won't let it go.

You miss the point about cross dressing entirely. Where men get aroused it's a sexual issue and should not be part of an assessment but is. It's ignored.

Plenty of evidence that those who don't transition often end up gay. Thus it should not be on offer to teens who are still developing. Teenage rebellion.

As to your statement that people seem happier once they transition. It's exaggerated The vast majority of people who explore transition don't pursue it. You'd have to assess non transitioning people who abandoned the process too

I will return with studies at some point but I'm just going to ignore you.

I have enough pedantic people in my life without seeking out others.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120624181#Comment_120624181

Again, none of this proves any connection.

Someone transitioning might be gay? Sure - but that doesnt prove causation and doesn't prove a scientific link.

Because there isn't one.

Bobtheman

It proves that people should be left alone until their 20s and the whole ideology kept out of schools.

No it doesn't prove causation but it's a factor. A big factor that along with other things such as cross dressing arousal is swept under the carpet by the trans movement

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120624343#Comment_120624343

So still no scienific explanation. Leaving that here until you do.

You opened this thread by saying you had no strong opinions on this - now you say it's an ideology that should be kept out of schools.... bit of a leap there?

Anyway, I've shared what I think should be taught a few posts up - I don't know if it's what you'd class as an 'ideaology' or not. I'd say it's pretty much 'the basics' you refee to in your opening post.

But what for you is 'the badics' and what is 'ideaology'.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120622877#Comment_120622877

"State refused to tell women they had cancer" - that statement is completely false.

Please read this:

https://twitter.com/Care2much18/status/1628539655875444738

Poor reporting by the media has led people to believe that diagnoses were withheld, whereas in fact that did not happen.