Age discrimination in Irish politics

The POTUS is over 80 but here in Ireland political giants like Eamon O'cuiv, Fergus O'Dowd, Sean Haughy and Bernard Durkin didn't get so much as a junior ministry due to age discrimination.

Peregrinus

There might have been factors other than age at work there. Just sayin'.

Leaving aside the, um, merits of the particular lads you mention, there's a difference between a presidential system like the US's and a parliamentary system like ours.

Once Biden had secured the nomination he had no rivals from within his own party. His only rival was Trump, and any voter concerned about Biden's age (77 at the time of the election) had no alternative but Trump, who was himself 74. So age wasn't really a factor in the election; there was no fear of losing votes to the vigorous young opponent.

But, in parliamentary systems, people always face rivals from within their own party - often several rivals. The alternative to appointing Eamon Ó Cuív as a minister is not appointing an opposition politician; it's appointing someone else from FF. FF as a party needs to deal with ambition and rivalries between its politicians; that means you can't have a generation of politicians approaching their prime who feel their route to office is blocked by a Soviet-style gerentocracy who have been round for years but refuse to move on. That destabilises the party. Leaders know this. That doesn't mean they can't appoint any very senior members to office, but it doesn mean they can't appoint very many.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058294052/age-discrimination-in-irish-politics

There's a lot more than their age against those four, in all fairness.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058294052/age-discrimination-in-irish-politics

Our president is 82, do we win?

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058294052/age-discrimination-in-irish-politics

And Micheál Martin was made Taoiseach because of his youth?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058294052/age-discrimination-in-irish-politics

I've heard O'Cuiv called many things, a "political giant" is not one of them.

Political dinosaur would be more apt.

His own machinations were the cause of his isolation

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120521812#Comment_120521812

That’s no doubt a sign of age discrimination here. :-)

minimary

I mean is it age discrimination that the referendum to allow under 35's to be President didn't succeed?

If you're older in Irish politics, chances are you've been around a while and have made some enemies and are less likely to go along with the agenda of a party leader you have more experience than.

If you're trying to draw an analogy with the US President who is directly elected rather than appointed to the job once elected it would be better to show politicans who the Irish electorate rejects because of their age.

Personally I have much more of an issue with nepotism in Irish politics than with than any perceived inter party age discrimination

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530409#Comment_120530409

I mean is it age discrimination that the referendum to allow under 35's to be President didn't succeed?

Pretty textbook example of it really. Its an utterly bizarre requirement. But its in the constitution so c'est la vie.

The gerontocracy in the US isn't something to be aspired to.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120530409#Comment_120530409

The US President isn’t directly elected. They are elected by members of an electoral college with the method of appointing those electors - and their freedom on how they vote - varying from state to state.

Atlantic Dawn

I don't get why you need to be 21 to be a TD but can vote at 18.

y0ssar1an22

it is discrimination. why you need to be over 35?

Collie D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534577#Comment_120534577

That’s what the voters decided - over 70% of us if I remember right.

prunudo

An observation I made over the last while about a local FF senator I follow on social media, its quite obvious that the people in his entourage for a better word, the people he interacts with, who attend his meetings, talks etc are predominantly over 55 white men.

He talks about local issues, current issues such as housing but rarely the people who are with him are effected by their discussions or seminars.

It appears there is an old boys club around the grass roots party members, no young blood coming in. I don't believe young people aren't interested in politics, but I suspect they're being attracted by the other parties often if their core beliefs seem at odds with each other.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534685#Comment_120534685

You're just telling us who made the discriminatory decision.

That doesn't answer Y0ssar1an22's question, which I think is why the discriminatory decision was made.

We don't really know the answer, because the secrecy of the ballot means that voters don't have to, and don't really have an opportunity to, explain their decisions. But we can speculate that people felt that the President should be a person of maturity or experience or both, with a record of achievement or service behind them, and should not be somebody with a long career ahead of them, likely to use the presidency as a stepping stone to something else. Given all that, they couldn't see themselves electing someone so young, and saw no need to change the constitution.

Annasopra

A lot of chatter about Joe Biden being too old but it is rarely mentioned about others e.g. King Charles, Michael D Higgins, Donald Trump. Definitely a manufactured ageism.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058294052/age-discrimination-in-irish-politics

Are all your political giants male?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120541696#Comment_120541696

Which, as much as it is their decision to make, strikes me as terrible reasoning really. Those are decisions that should factor into whether you vote for someone in the election, not whether you arbitrarily stop certain citizens from being able to run.

Instead we got people voting against the change because they "didn't want Jedward as President". 🙄

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542175#Comment_120542175

As it happens, there aren't any current long serving female FF/FG TDs who have been overlooked for promotion 🤷

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058294052/age-discrimination-in-irish-politics

All of them have had similar roles before, you can look at their 'talents' in those roles rather than their age. And in the case of O'Cuiv, their unpopularity with party leadership.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542203#Comment_120542203

Why do they have to be long standing to be giants?

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058294052/age-discrimination-in-irish-politics

O Cuiv had a good run of it in fairness, he is a former Minister and I suspect he is happy to just ride it out now on the back benches until he calls time on his career.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058294052/age-discrimination-in-irish-politics

And you were told this by whom exactly? Of the four I only know two them personally and I would not put either in charge of a tea trolley never mind a government department! One is unreliable and a loose cannon and the other is just not capable.

I can’t say age has ever had anything to do with it. First there is the question of how many spot’s you have got to fill, then there is the people you have got to keep on side, add to that the people that head office want to keep on side and of course the TD with a very strong party machine and on top of all this you need people who are actually capable of managing a department. I very much doubt age would even be in the top 20 criteria.

And the Taoiseach often has to do as he is told as well. I remember one that went down the country and came back with a new minister, not even a junior minister. There was a very spirited meeting in that county and he was left in no doubt what he had to do. Another came back with a new junior minister and at least one new regional airport! Things are not always what they seem.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120534577#Comment_120534577

Do you understand why it was put in in the first place and why people decide to retain it?

The most important role of the president is to defend the constitution and that requires political skill, experience and maturity which young people don’t have and nor does a thirty five year old either in my opinion. But it is what it is. You would not put an 18 year in charge of a major corporation nor should you rely on them to be the last line in defending your constitutional rights.

We have had at least a hand full of occasions now that have been made public where the President has had to intervene in the political process in defense of the constitution. Do you really think an 18 year old would have been capable of dealing with Haughey, Borland, Blaney et al during the gun running or the senior civil servants and army officers who have had confidence in an 18 year old when they realized what was going on? Or the experience and foresight to instruct the officer of the watch on how he was to handle attempts to influence his decision to dissolve the Dail and so on?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120544469#Comment_120544469

As to why it was put in in the first place: The presidency was of course an innovation in the 1937 Constitution; there was nothing like it in the 1922 Constitution. The drafters looked abroad for inspiration and they found it in, of all places, the 1919 Weimar Constitution of Germany. The seven-year term, the ban on the President being a member of the Oireachtas, the supreme command of the armed forces, the right of pardon, the function of appointing the Taoiseach and the ministers, and impeachment and removal by a two-thirds majority of both houses all replicate what is in the Weimar constitution. And, yes, a 35-year minimum age limit also appears in the Weimar Constitution, so it's likely that this is where it came from.

The Weimar constitution in turn borrowed elements of the US Constitution, including the 35-year age limit. But the particular package of elements that it b borrowed is replicated almost exactly in the 1937 Constitution, suggesting that the Irish drafters were using the German Constitution, and not the US Constitution, as a precedent.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542185#Comment_120542185

On the bright side, Jedward are 32 this year and will soon be eligible for election anyway. 😉

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120544469#Comment_120544469

I wouldn't want a 21 year old Taoiseach either but there is no constitutional bar to that. I have never heard a good argument for the limit (or the 21 year limit for the Dáil for that matter) that doesn't ultimately just boil down to reasons a person wouldn't win an election anyway.

Arbitrary barriers to exercising political rights should never be encouraged.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120542171#Comment_120542171

King Charles and Michael D aren't comparable, in their mostly ceremonial roles, with President of the United States or any political position that involves power or decision making.