Deceased English couple in Tipperary

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120884432#Comment_120884432

Have you any knowledge that isn't in the public domain? There's no record of them not getting on with the locals.

Montage of Feck

As a bit of a misanthropic weirdo myself, the idea of getting old fills me with dread when I hear of such stories.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120884145#Comment_120884145

They may not have been taking the best care of themselves if they had been listening to ‘alternative facts’ and been very suspicious of hospitals and doctors as a result.

Hangdogroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120884432#Comment_120884432

Who knows? You seem determined to paint the locals like something out of the Wicker Man.

It wasnt me123

The locals are grand, its rural ireland not Outer Mongolia. Cloneen is very small village and very rural, it wouldn’t be my first choice to live in - way too small for me.

I’m surprised two people with no known connection to Ireland would move to a very small rural community - and then they expected NHS / Hong Kong type health service. Delusional doesn’t even cover it. The gentleman signed himself out of hospital, rather than wait for treatment. They were conspiracy theorists - perhaps the ranting of the UK doctor influenced their decision.

Also her son was raised by is grandparents, never knew his mother. Was it his paternal grandparents? If it was his mothers parents, why didn’t they tell him about his mother?

Odd and sad that if they were so unhappy, they didn’t actually move to somewhere where they could have been happier as they clearly had the funds to do it.

ghostfacekilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120884818#Comment_120884818

In fairness, from someone who grew up in rural Ireland, I can attest that locals can often be a pig ignorant bunch for the most part compared to rural attitude in some other countries and anyone making the effort to make conversation with a stranger or new arrival is often thinly veiled nosiness, collecting valuable gossip to bring to their homes or cliques. The attempts at investing time and effort in forging relationships with strangers is rare, as most have no experience or capacity of having conversations beyond the weather or current affairs with their own families, never mind strangers and the bonds built from the above attempts are worthless, only above surface engagement, driven by a fear of intimacy and abandonment. Keep it general. Invest nothing, lose nothing. This is inherited down the lines for generations.

Sad about the couple. It's a recurrent theme to witness people jump to the defence of our country and it's infrastructure when a non-national makes any criticism of it but the reality was that this was their experience, having had a lot to compare it to and I would believe them. Ireland, in many aspects is a complete shambles currently due to decades of spineless and asinine voting at the polls.

It was obviously a poor choice of location for them to move to socially, when we offer so little in comparison to other nations due to our hardwired reliance on pub culture to be social and this couple didn't seem to be the type to be sitting in a rural local for 50hrs a week listening to the painful characters that see it as their second home.

Blarney_man

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120885065#Comment_120885065

When I first met the parents of my better half, they knew where I'm from, it's EU country, on the borders of central, eastern and southern Europe. First question was if we have toilets, that was in 2018., I just said I have marble floors in my house back home and he can only dream putting ones into his house, that was when I got some sort of respect, just to show how rural Ireland works

castletownman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120884741#Comment_120884741

Yes they come across as aloof, weird oddballs.

Actually plenty of them in many communities in Ireland. Always seem to be English too for some reason

Packrat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120885065#Comment_120885065

In the spirit of "attack the post, not the poster" then I would say that this post is a misinformed idiot with a log sized chip on its shoulder.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120885065#Comment_120885065

+1 on your assessment of rural Ireland. I don’t think it was the cause of Hilary and Nicholas’s isolation but it certainly didn’t help.

It wasnt me123

Rural Ireland is just that, rural. What possessed them to reside there? They had neighbours but were fearful of them. I think the issues lie with this couple, not Cloneen or the residents - they distrusted their family, neighbours, doctors, the health system but expected a first world heath system in the middle of nowhere. It’s sad that their life ended that way b its not Ireland’s fault, they clearly did not research the area they were going to -they should have sold up and moved for their own mental health but something tells me, that place wouldn’t have suited them either.

santana75

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120884033#Comment_120884033

I get all that and if they did in fact deceive everyone into thinking they were no longer living there Then this was their choice. I just think it exposes something cold and cruel about the society we live in. That this could happen in the first place, that two people could lay dead in their home and nobody in the community realised. That even if they had "moved to france" that none of the neighbours checked in with them via text or email or whatever, to see how they were getting on. And this is what I've noticed in the world we live in that you could go away for a year, maybe travelling or for work and it's possible that none of your "friends" would check in with you to see how you're doing. I have a friend living in Belgium the past year and he tells me that I'm the only one out of all the people he knew in Ireland that checks in with him to see how he's doing. Which was disappointing for him to experience and see this. But I've heard similar stories from others. Like I said, most people care only for themselves and their immediate family, beyond that, the concept of brotherly love seems to be dead and these cases where people lay dead in their homes for years, seem to becoming more of a frequent occurrence.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120885110#Comment_120885110

Thanks for illustrating my point.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120886199#Comment_120886199

It seems they were chasing a dream life all their life moving from place to place. They never put roots down anywhere. They didn't keep in touch with friends or family which is strange. Obviously nowhere was good enough. They decided to move to rural Ireland which was a stupid move from both a health and social perspective. It seems they did not want to be involved with locals at all.

There are various aspects to this couples life that indicates perhaps there was mental health issues especially in Hilary's case for most of her life .

Tavrin Callas

At least they had each other. A lot of people in similar positions don't even have that.

Run Forest Run

It doesn't seem all that sad to me.

Looks like they lived an exciting life, travelling the world together.

And in the end, they died together in their own home. Which is actually something many people wish they could do at the end of their life... and these two were very obviously elderly and at the end of their life. I don't consider it to be tragic when elderly people pass away - it's just a natural part of life.

The circumstances of their bodies not being discovered is sad for the community to reckon with. But it's not something this couple will be burdened with, as they are deceased and don't have any cares or worries anymore. It's quite literally irrelevant to them or their experience of this life tbh.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120886449#Comment_120886449

Like this poor guy, Tim O’Sullivan, found at the start of this year. About 22 years lying in the house in Mallow.

It's a very tragic case, but I think you can speculate and speculate and never get to the bottom of it.

Sadly, you'll hear of plenty of similar cases in England, France and so on. Some people just don't connect with community, family or services.

Rural Ireland's neither less welcoming nor does it have a complete lack of health services. I've experienced living in it and I have family who live in very rural spots, two of whom aren't from those areas and they get on very well and are extremely connected and active in their localities. There's a bit of deliberate networking involved when you move somewhere, but it's not that tough and there's loads of enthuasitic, welcoming individuals out there as well as people who are happy in their own little bubble and won't make any effort. It's always a mix.

The health and social services definitely are not perfect, but I haven't found them any much different from many other places in many respects. Rural is challenging in the sense that you have to make a two way effort and services sometimes have to be reached out to too. Some people will just shoo away any outreach from those services. I've seen it first hand with older relatives. District nurses calling in to say hello were more or less told where to go.

All you can really say is it was a sad situation and lacks enough information to make any sense of it from outside.

batman75

Their is a delicate balancing act to be struck between social responsibility to older people and respecting their privacy. It does though seem extraordinary that 18 months could pass and no one enquired as to their well being. Bills must have been on DD. Being English I assume they didn't get money from the State which would have required a weekly visit to the post office.

A tragic case and god love the people/person who eventually made the gruesome discovery.

HazeDoll

I'm making some wild guesses here but I have inferred from the article that they were deeply distrustful people.

Somehow they lived full and busy lives but entered their golden years with virtually no relationships outside their own marriage.

I'm wondering how that can happen and it's really not as impossible as it seems. Somebody I used to know pretty well had been in dire circumstances for a couple of years before I found out by chance. They had gone from relatively stable to homeless, in and out of psychiatric wards, involved with very unsavory types, and had some extremely upsetting experiences.

Years ago we all took this persons 'enthusiasms' as amusing quirks to be tolerated. They took the form of religious fervour, skepticism of anything scientific, fixations on celebrities. Basically extreme forms of very human characteristics.

The thing is that we didn't see it as illness because they appeared so rational and were able to function in a job etc. When the person's behaviour was increasingly obnoxious, outrageously selfish, embarrassing and dishonest we just drifted away. One by one we said, 'That's the last straw, they're an adult, I'm not listing to another whinging apology. They can sort this one out themselves.' When things got really bad none of us, including the immediate family, were around to step in. None of us realised we were cutting ties with somebody who was desperately in need of help.

In the case of this couple, it's easy enough to see how frequent long-distance moves and a distrusting nature forced them to look to each other instead of at the world outside. Any ideologies or delusions would become magnified and anybody outside the couple would, increasingly, appear dangerous.

the_pen_turner

people dont realise how rural these places are. i have worked up in that area around drangan , mulinahone , ballingarry et. i have lost count of the times i have driven down roads that have grass growing in the center and are narrowed in that a van or car can barely get through. i remember one day doing a job for a guy and there was no where to park beside his little pump house at the side of a road. i just stopped did my days work. there for 6+ hours and saw no one . no one passed or tried to drive down the road.

like it or not there is an english angle to this. culturally they are diferent to us. they are not as open and want far more seclusion and privacy . i know of 4 couples that retired here to the area. 1 in a busy village and they integrated well but the other 3 are not . 2 of the couples are as odd as be dambed . you couldnt call to their house , they would run you even if you had a good reason. i know a guy who droped in a newspaper that the local shop had ordered and she barely said thanks and hunted him. 4 th couple is a total recluse . i was close to them years ago but there is no point trying now. havnt seen them in 5 years .

they dont make good freinds in the area for some reason. they tend to be over powering and take over from my experience. that then leads to people pulling back and not bothering with them as much.

pat_sconce

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120883072#Comment_120883072

If she was living in the states, the chances are if she did not pay $10,000++ for health insurance, she would not even get an appointment - and if she did it would cost her tens of thousands of dollars.

In the UK the NHS is not what it was and would be little better than here - that's if it is any better.

Portugal is probably one of the best places for health at present.

If she had any level of health insurance here, she'd get an appointment fairly quickly. It's a little unfair, but multiple times better than the USA

freshpopcorn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120886205#Comment_120886205

Just out of interest if you had neighbours that kept to themselves, didn't give out there phone numbers, etc.

All of sudden it was said they had moved abroad.

What would you do?

I'm not employing that these people hadn't given put there numbers.

greyday

Cloneen is a grand place, in my experience the locals are as friendly as any other small Irish village.

I have seen a few English couples move over and stay a while but in general they tend to move again.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120528698#Comment_120528698

Reminds me of the one where there was Cork man dead inside house for 20 years - they all assumed he moved and it was boarded up.

https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/local-news/man-who-lay-dead-20-25986086

The locals were shocked/embarrassed.

Goldengirl

Yes it's sad. It happens more than people like to think , exclusion whether by self or community . People move on with their lives and forget about the person that wouldn't reply to them or the friend that moved away or changed their number.

The fact that these people had left other family and friends behind over the years for me anyway would indicate that that they were isolating themselves , and that they were never going to become involved in the community , especially as they did not appear to have outside interests or hobbies or importantly friends or family in this community to draw them out of themselves .

The rural communities , while not to blame, should probably look to local government / services to set up some sort of " checking in" on elderly people to ensure they are coping and all is well. It could be run on a voluntary basis , bit like the meals on wheels.

Lots of people would be happy to help out if only from a nosiness POV. ;) I have found that while it is uncomfortable having nosey neighbours it is better than not being in contact with anyone . And most of those same nosey neighbours can be the very ones who gave the time and energy to help others , advice re medical help and appointments, local services etc

But these people may have opted out of that too if offered .

This couple did close up their house and pretended they had gone away . If that isn't a sign that it was their choice to be left alone , no matter how sad the conclusion , I don't know what is .

I don't see how people in Cloneen can be blamed for this only by those who expect miracles or are extremely judgemental .

I would be inclined to say this is not just a phenomenon exclusive to rural Ireland but in fact common among rural communities everywhere .

HazeDoll

I live in a very rural location and there's an old guy who lives up the hill from me in a hut that's like a PVC garden shed. I don't think it has running water or electricity. He walks everywhere and we're miles from a shop. When I first moved here I used to meet him on the road and I gave him lifts, chatting away about the weather. He called into me a couple of times looking for lifts and I was happy enough to help out. I brought him firewood in cold weather and I used to drop 5L bottles of water down for him to save him carrying them from the shop. I thought he was eccentric and lonely and probably very vulnerable. Like me, he's a blow-in.

He got annoyed with me one day because he said he had left a book behind one day when I had given him a lift. I told him I don't think I had found a book but I'd have a look for it at home. He couldn't remember the name of it and I'm almost certain he lost it elsewhere. A few months later he was roaring at me from the gate asking when I was going to give the book back. A few weeks after that I saw him waving his arms and kicking my front gate to get a reaction from my dog. He became increasingly hostile, at one point roaring obscenities at me while I was getting diesel. The entire time I was at the pump he stood at the bus-stop across the road and called me all the things we're not allowed to say on boards.ie.

From my house I can sometimes hear him bellowing and cursing, often late at night.

I found out that this is his pattern. Everybody in the locality has had the same experience. He starts off reasonable and pleasant then switches into orc mode and gets very unpleasant. One neighbour used to bring him dinners until he took offence at something and went mental. Her husband persevered for a while, dropping up hot dinners every day until one evening the old guy burst out of the hut and threatened him with a billhook. He's probably mid 70s now. The day will come when someone realises that it has been a while since anybody has seen him. It might only be a few weeks after he dies but it could easily be a few months.

When we hear these grisly stories of people being dead for months and the uncaring, self-absorbed members of the community not bothering to check on them, I think of him.

apache

It's a very sad story and there is indeed 2 sides.

brookers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120887760#Comment_120887760

Why were all the plates smashed and tv had fallen over. Was it done in anger etc, they glued the locks too. Sounds to me like people/person with mental health issues. Ireland very friendly place but you can't force it with people if they a bit odd and want to be left alone. I know people hate the church in Ireland but at least if they attended services, would have helped them a little...

looksee

Ireland very friendly place

Ireland is friendly if you are chatting to someone in a pub. People on the street will smile and greet you and give tourists directions. They will be sociable if you are in some sort of club or class and chat with you. If you are out gardening they will stop and comment on the garden or the weather or whatever. That level of friendly. And it creates a pleasant environment.

However you would not feel you would be welcome to call into their home, nor they come into yours. A few years ago I moved to the tiny village where I live, the neighbours are very nice and welcoming and I have got myself in local social activities, I am very happy here. But after 50 years living in Ireland I have one Irish couple that I would consider very longstanding friends, though I would not call without ringing first. Otherwise the houses I feel welcome to call into are English, Dutch and Spanish people, not by selection but by the way they have permitted the friendship to develop.

Having said that I think that if I lived in England - as a stranger - I probably would not have a very different experience. People have their family and established circle and do not need to allow strangers in. Those nationalities that I am listing off do not have the extended family and friends from school and long time neighbours so they are willing to let people in. Its easy to be confident about a country's friendliness when you are surrounded by people you have known all your life.

Having said all that I would agree that the couple were reclusive and did not allow for people to get to know them, but don't extrapolate the outlook and behaviour of entire nationalities from one couple.