Development Pathways

Jump_In_Jack

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realhorrorshow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558971#Comment_120558971

Yep, embarrassing for me. Have updated.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558905#Comment_120558905

Yeah, I agree, and definitely some of it is money, but not all of it. Some of it is decisions around how spend that money too.

There are differences in demographics, but, equally we're not comparing Monte Carlo to outer Mongolia here, these are places a couple of hours apart by car. There is plenty of wealth in Munster and Ulster as well, and the kids who's parents are sending them to PBC, Glenstal, CBC or Rockwell in Munster or Methody, Royal School Armagh etc aren't exactly from impoverished backgrounds either.

The key evidence for this is that the demographics are not wildly different now than they were at any time in recent Irish history - so it can't be the reason for such outperformance in the past 10-15 years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558954#Comment_120558954

Yeah, tbf those stats are strong. We've not just been comparing academy players though, but graduates from within the past three seasons plus current academy players.

But, nonetheless, Connacht do have a good track record of giving opportunities to young players and young potential Irish qualified players.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558995#Comment_120558995

Thats 4 schools in Munster and fees for Glenstal especially is well above what most schools charge. They are only a couple of hours apart but thats irrelevant.

There is wealth in Munster but nothing compared to Leinster and the schools system.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559011#Comment_120559011

Yeah, but these things are still broadly comparable.

PBC and St Michael's are broadly similar in size, both all-boys, private schools, with fees broadly similar. PBC have a stronger rugby heritage than Michaels - and the net worth of families sending their kids to these schools isn't that dramatically different either.

So is it the case that the parents in Michaels are digging deep and the ones in PBC won't, or are they just spending money badly?

Too often this narrative around the Leinster school system ignores the fact that it's not just Leinster that has private schools.

And, finally, fwiw, there are plenty of private schools in Leinster who have barely produced a pro rugby player in the past 20 years.

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559061#Comment_120559061

PBC are providing pro players. Theyre not the problem or the issue. Its Limerick and rest of province where these schools dont exist and i think Michaels are spending money that PBC either dont have/invest elsewhere. facilties show there.

It isnt a narrative about Leinster and fee schools. Its truth especially the sheer quantity of them.

ulsteru20s

4 more pages and i’m still waiting for sheehan, JvF and Keenan’s year one and two academy numbers.

Its pretty suspicious that those are the prime examples of leinster dev and you just drop that topic like its radioactive.

Almost like this isn’t an intellectually honest argument you are making…

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559061#Comment_120559061

Surely the entire second paragraph needs some sourcing. How the hell do you know all that of the top of your head?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559081#Comment_120559081

Yeah, once again pick and choose the parts you want to engage with, and then accuse others of not making intellectually honest arguments.

Childish.

Are you claiming Sheehan, Van der Flier, and Keenan's development and where they are now isn't as a result of great coaching within the Leinster system? Was it always likely that these three guys would be amongst the best players in the world?!

I highlighted these three specifically because they all had relatively unconventional paths to where they got to.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558905#Comment_120558905

What isn't replicable about early morning sessions and reviews? Why can only wealthy people turn up at 6.30am for training?

What is hard to replicate is commitment among teachers, parents and students, to actually put in the hours necessary, but it absolutely can be done.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559100#Comment_120559100

Of course its great coaching. You CHOSE those examples. You started a whole thing about tony butler not getting enough time before year 3. Then you CHOSE three examples who didn’t get any time before year 3.

It’s at least funny and it definitely makes you wonder if the secret sauce of leinster production is actually playing academy players early in games.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559095#Comment_120559095

Because this very issue has been debated on here before, but once again, jump in and accuse others of lying or being wrong about things that you clearly don't know anything about yourself.

But here you go:

St Michael's - Students: 713 Fees: €6,153

https://www.schooldays.ie/school/st-michaels-college-rollnumber-60561G

PBC - Students: 710 Fees: €4,500

https://www.schooldays.ie/school/presentation-college-rollnumber-62570R

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559108#Comment_120559108

I chose those three in an entirely different context, and in the case of VdF and Keenan, they're broadly from a different era. Keenan absolutely did get game time before Year 3 too though fwiw.

I chose those three because of the suggestion from you and others that maybe the reason Munster haven't given minutes to some guys is simply because they aren't good enough going into the Academy in the first place, because all three of these are guys that people could have made that argument about at the time they were leaving school.

Butler is directly comparable to guys like Tector and Prendergast though (who play the same position as him, and played in the same Irish U20 side as him).

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559061#Comment_120559061

I believe Michaels for example got a sizeable cash injection for their rugby programme from a well known large Irish business. It is not just the parents putting money in, there are other patrons.

Of course, you could believe that Leinster buck the trend of every sport there is, they are consistently successful without spending any more money, and the reason Leinster are head and shoulders above any club in world rugby in terms of player development is that people born in Leinster are genetically superior for the game of rugby, or Leinster just have the best coaches that world rugby has ever seen who are able to turn these young schoolboys into professionals in remarkably short periods of time.

I know which option is far more likely.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559111#Comment_120559111

Huh, the second one has 30% less in total fees. That’s not comparable.

Also, as an aside to my knowledge Leinster and Munster give these schools very little. There really isn’t much input the two branches can put in to what quality is coming out of these schools compared to what they decide to do themselves.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559121#Comment_120559121

Yea, but those guys didn’t actually get time directly so doesn’t that back up the idea that guys get time early because they are more developed.

Those examples didn’t get time and i doubt the reason was that other players’ dev was prioritized.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559131#Comment_120559131

and the reason Leinster are head and shoulders above any club in world rugby in terms of player development is that people born in Leinster are genetically superior for the game of rugby,

This couldn't be more the opposite of what I'm arguing; in fact, this is effectively what everyone else here is arguing. Just shrugging the shoulders and saying "Leinster are just better, they've got better players, there's nothing we can do about that, better go sign another South African".

I made this argument on a previous thread, but if the answer here is just money spent then that makes the gap all the more inexcusable (and it very likely is). You're highlighting benefactors giving cash injections to underage development pathways, but it's pretty well known wealthy benefactors have put up sizable chunks of money to fund expensive overseas signings for Munster and Ulster.

Shouldn't they be convinced that money could be better spent? It would certainly appear Leinster's benefactors are getting more bang for their buck, as Rock and Michaels will still be churning out quality players long after RG Snyman and Steven Kitshoff have moved home to SA.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559164#Comment_120559164

How much money does Leinster rugby put into those two schools?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559132#Comment_120559132

I'm not claiming Leinster and Munster give money to the schools, but they are absolutely connected in terms of player development etc. They haven't always been on the same page, and there have been some noteworthy clashes down the years, but broadly speaking they are aligned.

Illustrative of this is the fact that current Leinster players tend to be very involved in the SCTs in these schools, and quite a few current Leinster players are currently coaching teams this season.

On top of that, the influence of Leinster is definitely felt through the underage interprovincial sides and the development officers.

My point on the fee levels wasn't to show that they're receiving similar levels of fee income directly, though Michaels do earn roughly €1.2m more in fees - it's to illustrate that the families sending their kids to these schools aren't exactly hard up. It's not a case where you can afford €6k a year - BILLIONAIRE, but over here you're only affording €4.5k a year - PAUPER. There is a sizable cost of living difference between the two areas as well, so those two fees are broadly comparable.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559177#Comment_120559177

So, not much.

I’m sure there is some argument about how aligned each province is with their school system.

However, the lion’s share of the credit for their output is the schools themselves. They or their donors are the people who built those programs, not Leinster rugby.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559164#Comment_120559164

If some guy didn’t go to one of those private schools and wants to give munster money to sign players, they are supposed to specifically tell them to pick School A or School B instead. You don’t see problems with that?

This stuff is happening organically in dublin. I don’t think it is as easy to simulate that elsewhere as you think.

edit: it might actually be easier to do that in ulster. Schools are more centralized and more likely to be ok with concentrating on one sport.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559206#Comment_120559206

Obviously it isn't easy - I'm not claiming it is.

But it's not an insurmountable obstacle either. The temptation will always be to spend the money on a shiny NIQ, but €1m would likely employ 4 or so new development officers who can get out there coaching and identifying talent for around 5 years.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559257#Comment_120559257

I agree with the latter. Although i think Munster are putting alot of money into centres of excellence (they are building three currently?) so on some level that is happening.

My wife works in fundraising with major donors (100s of thousands sometimes) and a key part of her job is convincing people to give money to this instead of that. But at the end of the day, rich people want what they want and often they want something that is tangible NOW.

There are probably also some political ramifications from munster steering money to one school over another.

Maybe they could educate schools on how to make asks of their alumni base, and provide courses on that. Or provide people who can help schools work on grant applications. That kind of thing. I’d say realistically though, the ask has to come from the school. Munster rugby as the middle man seems tricky.

Something I’ve thought about in ulster is having some kind of grant that pays money to teaching students with a rugby background as long as they take coaching courses while in school and coach in schools and clubs after. Like a long term plan to increase the coaching base at schools province wide.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559298#Comment_120559298

It's not just money - it's alignment, rugby culture and willingness to back young players and commit to longer term development too.

England is a perfect example of that - you have countless private schools with fees multiples of the Irish schools, and you've chequebook-happy owners who are willing to spend whatever it takes, and yet you've sides like Bristol and Bath (both in a historically strong rugby catchment area) absolutely floundering at or near the bottom of the table for a couple of years now.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558566#Comment_120558566

McKee is a year 3. So not last year.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559319#Comment_120559319

Its definitely not just money. But even with alignment there are differences. Munster school rugby is more geographically dispersed and has more conflict with other sports in those schools than in dublin.

There are lots of little ways its harder. Which makes sense, right? A very fertile environment plus good management is more likely to produce a leinster like machine. Other provinces can improve what they do and they should but its not the same environment.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120558751#Comment_120558751

Correct!

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559409#Comment_120559409

Yea this is a chicken or the egg situation and I feel like the determative factor is that they are good enough to get playing time not that playing time makes them good.

Obviously not 100% one way or the other but i lean that way.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559005#Comment_120559005

Connacht have had good young players come through. Then there's Hawkshaw,Illo etc who went west. They've done well.