Civil servants to call for four-day working week

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120567627#Comment_120567627

Probably because they have the same kind of attitude as you're showing here?

3 years ago nobody (including me) would have said large numbers of the CS would be routinely working from home on multiple days a week. Yet here we are.

Times change and work practices change. 4 day work weeks may not happen in every sector, but there is no reason why they can't work in some.

As the person in the clip said, they can run a pilot, see if it works, and if the results are positive, look at implementing it more widely. That's how change happens.

The private sector employer at the start of the RTE clip was very positive about how a 4 day week has been good for productivity for his company.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120567627#Comment_120567627

Certainly trying it.

https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/21/4_day_work_week/

AmberGold

I take it they’ll be suggesting a 20% reduction in holiday and pension entitlements in line with the reduced hours?

cuttingtimber22

Is this a union actually saying that their members should work 4 days a week? Noble of them I say.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120567961#Comment_120567961

What reduction in hours?

I.R.Y.E.D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120567223#Comment_120567223

Often those going on about other people being lazy etc are just projecting.

Every workplace has one or more people who never shut up making noise about how busy they are but are always the ones not meeting their targets.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120567640#Comment_120567640

So have I, for 80% of salary, bonus and annual leave . (Private sector, the company has people on 2, 3 and 4 day-weeks. They do this at employee request, have done for years.)

I end up working some 10 hour days. Some weeks I'm shattered by Saturday. One colleague was doing similar, and requested to go back to 5 days/week, because he found it unfair to do the hours but not get the cash. I find the convenience of being off on a weekday worth it.

A colleague is supposed to cover my work on my off day. But they only do what can't wait until tomorrow. So I get probably 95% as much assigned to me as the 5-day colleagues do.

AFAIK, the civil service has something similar in place. All that would be different in a trial is that departments could no longer refuse SWW to people who apply. Which could have consequences for the output of places that struggle to get staff now.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568061#Comment_120568061

Most people have direct experience of public sector services. My own "feeling" is that the inefficiency is not necessarily due to not working "hard", but rather reluctance to embrace new technology and methods (some areas still get paper payslips, the HSE has prehistoric IT etc). This can be either due to lower staff or in many cases higher ups who have spent their entire careers in the PS and never seen it done any other way.

I think the reason that public pay is higher on average than private (to an extent that is far greater than other european countries, even though we have many high paid tech jobs here) is due to too many on higher grades. There needs to be an acceptance that not everyone can get promoted and it is perfectly natural for there to be staff turnover, it is desirable in fact, as it is not good if people just go through the motions for decades with no real interest.

Pat201

I think it would be a very positive step for public and private sector to move towards a 4 day week but first there would need to be a independant review done on processes and efficiency in certain public sectors. I think everyone has experienced frustration with how inefficient it can be at times. Id say some places still even use Fax machines .

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568403#Comment_120568403

It would be great if they could focus first on improving services and maybe then look at improving work life balance afterwards.

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568425#Comment_120568425

Not all parts of public sector are equal. Revenue for example seems to be very efficient. HSE at the other end of the scale. My place is probably towards the good end but it’s still frustrating how long it can take to get things through processes and approvals.

Pat201

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568448#Comment_120568448

Revenue does seem good in fairness, If you ask a question you normally get a response quite quick. Bringing a 4 day week into a department like that could be tolerated well but bringing it into departments that do not run well would be a disaster. It should be seen as a benefit that could be given if department was ran efficiently. You cannot give everyone a treat for differing results

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120567187#Comment_120567187

It’s

Gusser09

I think it's a great idea in theory. Not just for Public Servants but across the board where possible. However I don't see it happening very soon or at all in the Public Service. I for one though wouldn't be cramming extra hours into 4 days. That's nonsense and you'd burn out very quick.

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120562452#Comment_120562452

Why would front line workers have to work a 5 day week? Is nobody needed on the front line on a Saturday or a Sunday? Of course they are and this is provided for by rostering. The same would happen with a 4 day week.

AyeGer

Research on 4 day week:

‘Research suggests that worktime reduction is a multi-dividend policy that can improve human wellbeing, organisational performance, and environmental outcomes. Social benefits include reduced stress and burnout for employees and more time for family, community, and self. Economic benefits depend on the form of worktime reduction. Where it is accomplished without loss or even gains in productivity, it is beneficial for companies’ bottom lines. Environmental benefits can accrue reduced energy expended in commuting, especially with four-day work weeks; increases in low carbon but time-intensive practices for households; and reduced carbon emissions due to trading income for a time.

As the most popular form of worktime reduction, a four-day, 32-hour workweek has been gaining momentum in recent years. Given this growth in interest, Four Day Week Global (4DWG) began supporting companies and non-profit organisations that wanted to try a four-day, 32-hour workweek with no reduction in pay. Boston College leads the research team in partnership with University College Dublin, Cambridge University and other academic partners. We are constructing a sizeable quantitative database of employee outcomes across different countries and types of companies and organisations. We collected data on time use, subjective wellbeing, physical and mental health, labour market behaviour, and energy use with a wide-ranging instrument.

In February 2022, 4DWG launched the first of several coordinated international trials. It involved 614 employees across Ireland, the United States, Australia, and New Zealand. The research involved (i) surveying employees at the beginning, midpoint and end of the trial, (ii) compiling time-use diaries of employees’ days off, (iii) collecting monthly data on organisational performance and (iv) interviewing employees and managers at the end of the trial1.

This report presents detailed results of a subset of Irish organisations and their employees participating in the trial. This group comprised 12 small to medium enterprises, primarily concentrated in the IT and professional services sectors.

The key findings are as follows:

All 12 companies completed a final survey in which we asked about their overall experience and whether they would

continue with the four-day week.

l Nine are definitely continuing with the new schedule, and the remaining quarter (three) are planning to continue but haven’t yet committed to keeping it long-term

l On a scale of 0-10, from very negative to very positive, the companies’ average rating for their experience of the trial is 9.2

l Asked about how the trial affected their overall company performance, the average score was 8.2 out of 10

l Companies rated employee productivity over the course of the trial as 7.6/10.

Several companies also provided records of organisational performance data for the trial period and a comparable previous

year. Based on an analysis of these data, we found:

l Six out of seven companies reported their monthly revenue growth, with one seeing a decline

l Six out of the ten companies who provided data on staff numbers increased their staff numbers, while two companies maintained and two others decreased

l Among the companies that provided data on sick and personal days, the number fell in four and increased in three organisations

l Two organisations recorded changes in energy use and both found reductions

l Four organisations tracked company industry-specific productivity metrics, and all observed improvements.’

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120567129#Comment_120567129

It actually indicates the exact opposite. Inefficient businesses have to resort to overtime to get the job done

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568934#Comment_120568934

Whereas in the PS, you just avoid doing the job or else people have to wait a long time.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568967#Comment_120568967

They can take on temporary contractors at eye watering expense if you want.

It not like there aren't delays in private industry.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568874#Comment_120568874

It is very difficult to draw conclusions from a time limited study. It is quite possible after the study is over that people will drift back into old habits and productivity would decline. I think to be able to do it, you would need to be able to measure staff productivity, as far as I am aware the PS isn't great at this.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/civil-service-performance-review-deemed-failure-as-majority-pass-1.1621423

10 years ago, but can't find anything newer. Less than 1% of staff needing improvement apparently.

The perception of the PS is that it struggles to deliver services in a timely fashion and is very resistant to change (unless the change is a benefit to staff, in which case it is easily achieved).

Luis21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120557654#Comment_120557654

What reality would that be ? Please explain to us plebs.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569024#Comment_120569024

When you look at the arguments around remote working, WFH there's all the same issues regardless of it private or public.

Most places don't measure productivity properly.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569021#Comment_120569021

You can change private provider in most cases. We have no choice about public services, we have to pay for them, have no control over how they are run. I am sure you are well aware that people in Ireland don't really rate the services provided by the public sector. There are some countries that manage it well, it certainly isn't the case here. Just look at the HSE with it's lack of joined up IT, my wife was astonished at how primitive it was relative to Germany in 2008 and it hasn't changed much since, absolutely prehistoric, doctors are required to create letters for patients rather than some sort of automated system (which they have in private GP practices).

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569042#Comment_120569042

If a private company is inefficient, it means less profit for shareholders which to be quite frank, I don't care about. It is up to them to manage their business better. With an inefficient PS we have poorly delivered services and high taxes required to deliver them (for those who pay higher taxes, of course lots of people don't pay very much due to the skewed system here).

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569056#Comment_120569056

Two examples of services which we have privatised in Ireland and the utter disaster it has become.

• Telecom Eireann

I'm sure you will agree that the company are dreadful to deal with their customer service is an an absolute shiteshow. Now if we had of retained ownership I doubt very much we would be in the position we are today of having to spend billions on NBI. We gave up ownership of all of the infrastructure. It is an utter failure since it went private.

• Electricity

It's all about profit now and has customer service improved? Has it in it's hole. We've seen during this energy crisis that Electricity suppliers can charge what they want, offer shocking customer service and are answerable to nobody? Change provider? Haha. That won't mean a thing.

You see I have to laugh when I hear this idiotic argument of privatising more public services. The minute it becomes about profit it's start a spiral to the bottom.

Revenue, DSP, OPW, OSI for example are extremely efficient in what they do.

Look some people just have it in for Civil Servants no matter what. It's always been like that and always will be.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569156#Comment_120569156

You aren't seriously using 2 formerly public companies as examples? Telecom Eireann was an absolute disaster when it was the only provider, people had to wait months to get a phone connection. The requirement to have a NBI is a direct result of having the population spread out, with people in rural areas building remote houses on their parent's fields, which is great for them, but results in it being uneconomic to provide services. The state should have decent planning laws to ensure houses are built reasonably close to villages and towns.

I don't have it in for public servants, I just don't think the state (and therefore the employees) do a good job at providing services, I am not alone in thinking that. The state should be looking at having people move in and out of the PS more regularly IMO, it doesn't do any good to have such a high percentage of lifers with no outside experience. They need to look at ways of making it attractive for those with technical skills to move in so that automation can be improved, one way would be to have different salary scales and recognise that they are not EOs or APs, but something different, so wouldn't be on the same salary scale, they might even be earning a lot more than their managers (which would not be unusual in the private sector which is less hierarchical).

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569148#Comment_120569148

You might not care. But the inference that public service bad, private good, isn't credible. There is good and bad in both.

DAngelo Bailey

Great news if it happens what sort of an eejit wants to spend 5 days out of 7 working?

Pat201

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569156#Comment_120569156

People could have it in civil servants if they experienced bad service . As i said Revenue doing well and rarely hear negative about them . Some other departments are just disasters and definitely people just stealing a wage. Not saying all Civil servants do but definitely higher percentage as private companies run on profit so do not carry dead weight as much

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120569236#Comment_120569236

Right, but if there is bad in the private sector, I don't need to use the service, which is great, that's why I don't care. A good example would be say if you get a hospital appointment, finally, 8 am. You turn up at 8 am, only to find that 30 others have an 8 am "appointment", because it wasn't really an appointment time. You have to take a ticket and wait several hours. It really just shows "we don't give a f**k about your time". They could stagger it more, so that the most someone would be waiting would be say 1 hr, but it's harder to do that, so we stay with the same system which is easiest to implement. Imagine if you went to a restaurant or hairdressers for an appointment and found you had to take a ticket and wait several hours?