Jordan Neely killed by chokehold on subway

pjohnson

Seems the main defence is Mr. Marine was too thick to realise stopping someone breathing can equal death.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583543#Comment_120583543

Found the Punisher fan.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584603#Comment_120584603

Without further evidence right wing media is already in a frenzy ratcheting up stereotypes against strangers and the homeless on mass transit. 

You are a gas man. You are complaining about right wing media ratcheting up stereotypes and in the very first paragraph of your OP in this thread, you mention race in an attempt to try make it a racial attack. The saying 'The pot calling the kettle black' springs to mind.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584697#Comment_120584697

From Eyewitness account and describe what they witness as murder after being told to stop rendering first aid:

“Just as my train was arriving, the police showed up. I told them to do CPR on him. Then I left. But, like I said, I didn’t think he was dead, because they were saying he was breathing. It’s upsetting as ****. It’s ruining my life right now. We got to bang out right now, bang out the truth. It’s shameful. There’s no getting around it. I won’t feel better until they **** arrest this guy for murdering him. And I’m not about all that police **** and people going to prison. The only reason they’re letting him off is the race of the people involved. If that was a white woman he choked to death, he’d be in a cell right now. So what does that mean? That a Black man’s life is worth less than a white woman’s life. That’s what that means. That’s why I went to the police over this **** ****. And I would never do that.”

Penny has yet to indicate what if any specific violent actions or threats instigated the chokehold.

" you mention race"

So will the police report, and the coroners report, and the crime databases and spreadsheets. And yet people still try and argue with me when I contend that policing in the US is functionally racist and by design, prone to racial bias. And that data informs the media.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584714#Comment_120584714

That statement is pure bullsh1t. There's a lot of personal opinion in it rather than fact. The part you highlighted in bold is pure speculation.

Here's the facts from that statement. Just as my train was arriving, the police showed up. I told them to do CPR on him. Then I left. That’s why I went to the police over this **** ****. And I would never do that.”

Here's the personal opinion from that statement. But, like I said, I didn’t think he was dead, because they were saying he was breathing. It’s upsetting as ****. It’s ruining my life right now. There’s no getting around it. I won’t feel better until they **** arrest this guy for murdering him. And I’m not about all that police **** and people going to prison. The only reason they’re letting him off is the race of the people involved. If that was a white woman he choked to death, he’d be in a cell right now. So what does that mean? That a Black man’s life is worth less than a white woman’s life. That’s what that means.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584407#Comment_120584407

According to reports I've seen, the white marine was just one of three men who acted to restrain Mr. Neely. All three men were of different races, one white, one black and one Hispanic. If three men of different races collectively conclude that action must immediately be taken, then I can only assume that Mr. Neely's behaviour were so off-the-wall, threatening, abusive etc that a reasonable person would be likely to agree. At the time later witnesses came on scene, the marine in question may have been in "fight" mode, his thoughts impaired by adrenalin, still predominantly concerned with protecting others from the threat. And given that the supposed victim had a long history of violent crime, any feeling of threat that the other passengers had was IMO very valid.

To me, this incident raises some questions:

• Why was Mr. Neely not committed to a mental asylum? It was clear that he both needed help and was a danger to the community.
• How deranged was Mr. Neely's behaviour that three men of different races came to the same conclusion before acting in concert to restrain him? Were they reasonable in perceiving an immediate threat?
• Why are the other two men not featured so prominently in media reporting?
• Assuming that this actually was a murder, how come we don't hear about all the other murders that occur on the New York City subway, given that violent crime is on the increase in that city and that murders on the subway are commonplace? How come all those victims are not worldwide household names?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584753#Comment_120584753

You don't find it a bit rigid of you to suggest that the eyewitness was the only one who, clearly, saw through a lens of race, on that subway train?

It's not my speculation, it's someone who was an eyewitness to the homicide. Though I already prefaced my take 2c on it: "it looks a lot like deference to racism to me (and deference to a marine, by the NYPD), someone with dark skin yelling at people, they freak out, kill him in fear." (the OP)

To wit, I've seen a more detailed claim of it being racist, from an eye witness, than we have any explanation from the killer, or the accomplices, or any of the other bystanders what exact "threats" or "violence" the victim conducted which was the trigger for the chokehold. I haven't heard anyone say he said "I'm going to kill you now," etc. he didn't 'menacingly reach into his pocket for a concealed weapon' etc. and that lack of a specific is more crucial than whether the eyewitness thinks it was racist, but it is still lacking.

Sounds more like, based on what they have been quoted him saying and doing, that this guy was simply agitating/trolling the crap out of people and the marine snapped. Leading to a lot of follow up questions for the investigators about what about that agitation justified a chokehold long enough to make a guy **** himself and die.

AFAIK Neely was stationed in NC most of his enlistment and not deployed overseas. Not like he likely had PTSD or thought this guy was a suicide bomber (stripping himself and removing his jacket) ?

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584810#Comment_120584810

It's not my speculation, it's someone who was an eyewitness to the homicide.

The only reason they’re letting him off is the race of the people involved. If that was a white woman he choked to death, he’d be in a cell right now. So what does that mean? That a Black man’s life is worth less than a white woman’s life. That’s what that means.

Yep, it's not your speculation, it's someone else's speculation.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584852#Comment_120584852

Someone who witnessed the homicide.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584874#Comment_120584874

And it's speculation none-the-less.

Yep, they witnessed the incident but the bit in bold is purely subjective. It's their own opinion. The witness is speaking about their own thoughs as to why Penny isn't being prosecuted. There's no proof that Penny isn't being prosecuted because it was a black man who ended up dead. Pure speculation.

Anyway, we'll keep going around in circles so I'll leave it so.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584777#Comment_120584777

According to reports I've seen, the white marine was just one of three men who acted to restrain Mr. Neely.

But the only one to be choking him.

three men were of different races, one white, one black and one Hispanic.

This suggests that minorities can not be influenced by negative racial stereotypes, even of their own race. That's untrue. And of them, it was Penny who exerted the lethal force that killed him.

 I can only assume that Mr. Neely's behaviour were so off-the-wall, threatening, abusive etc that a reasonable person would be likely to agree.

Except nobody, none of the witnesses, not the killer, have come out with what was supposedly so off-the-wall, so threatening, abusive that the chokehold etc. was initiated. Several reports to the contrary indicate he was NOT violent and he did NOT direct any threats at anyone. One of the few quotes from the victims is simply "I don't care if I die" etc. which isn't abusive, nor is it per se threatening or off the wall. I just don't think that assumption fits with what the witnesses have stated.

Why was Mr. Neely not committed to a mental asylum? It was clear that he both needed help and was a danger to the community.

NY State laws. Mayor has addressed that this week.

How deranged was Mr. Neely's behaviour that three men of different races came to the same conclusion before acting in concert to restrain him? Were they reasonable in perceiving an immediate threat?

A question for the court but according to early reports Neely was engaged with Penny in a verbal disagreement:

The investigation found that Neely was “engaged in a verbal dispute with a 24-year-old male” that escalated into a physical altercation, police said. During the “physical struggle,” Neely lost consciousness.

Cellphone video taken by passenger Juan Alberto Vazquez showed the 24-year-old man on the ground with his arm around Neely’s neck. Two other subway riders appear to help restrain Neely, who was Black.

Vazquez told NBC New York that Neely got on the train and “began to say a somewhat aggressive speech, saying he was hungry, he was thirsty, that he didn’t care about anything, he didn’t care about going to jail, he didn’t care that he gets a big life sentence.”

Vazquez said Neely was held in the chokehold position for about 15 minutes.

Neely was unconscious when police arrived, and he was pronounced dead at a hospital.

He died of “compression of neck (chokehold)” and the manner of death was ruled a homicide by the city's chief medical examiner’s office said.

Immediately after the incident, the 24-year-old man was taken into custody for questioning and released.

...

Why are the other two men not featured so prominently in media reporting?

They didn't compress his neck. They were not the ones to escalate.

Assuming that this actually was a murder, how come we don't hear about all the other murders that occur on the New York City subway, given that violent crime is on the increase in that city and that murders on the subway are commonplace? How come all those victims are not worldwide household names?

Violent crime is "always on the increase" in "democrat controlled cities" this is a neverending drum beat of right wing media, even when it is not proven out by statistics. Even when it is, they aren't typically the focus of such controversy, as this one for example is, because for example those killers are not given deferential treatment by police. And when they are discussed regardless, the right wing media indeed tells us all about it, (eg. you couldn't have missed widespread media coverage of a man who was released on bail for murder who then went to commit another murder). So yet again, another example of whataboutism that doesn't hold up as a reason to shut down this conversation.

SeanW

If the mayor talked about mental illness laws in NY, I will look that up, but it's clear to me that the alleged victim should have been in an asylum. I also find it difficult to believe that three men - all of different races - all concluded erroneously that there was a threat. One person, maybe. Three, presumably thinking/acting independently of each other coming to the same conclusion? I find that very difficult to believe.

More likely, the three men independently came to a good faith (and likely well founded) conclusion that Mr. Neely posed an immediate threat and acted collectively to stop it.

Overheal

Sorry let me link that

https://nypost.com/2023/05/11/adams-wants-to-strengthen-kendras-law-tighten-release-standards-for-mentally-ill-after-neely-death/

He should have been in an asylum sure, but being crazy isn't a death sentence, being interned is just added protection for them against well - being violently misunderstood for one.

 One person, maybe. Three, presumably thinking/acting independently of each other coming to the same conclusion? I find that very difficult to believe.

Eh I caution that conclusion as well, Derek Chauvin wasn't the only officer holding down George Floyd either. They weren't tried on the same docket either. Multiple people it has been shown, can have different thoughts and motives and actions, and liabilities even if several of them took part in a homicide.

osarusan

Even accepting for the sake of argument that the lad had justifiable reason to get him in a chokehold, that doesn't justify keeping him in one indefinitely.

At some point he stopped being a threat requiring a chokehold, and that's where the guy continuing the choking gets himself into a world of trouble.

Overheal

Criminal charges incoming

https://abc7ny.com/daniel-penny-jordan-neely-subway-chokehold-nyc/13235121/?fbclid=IwAR1-r9hajbzWYQyHBCerCxlOczFtQG0Hzb8LtQsE3q3nsLfzvlcO_edSB4U

The Manhattan district attorney confirmed that Penny will be arrested on a charge of manslaughter.

"Police sources told ABC News that Penny was not specifically being threatened by Neely when he intervened and that Neely had not become violent and had not been threatening anyone in particular."

The family called his attorney's previous statement a public admission of guilt.

https://abc7ny.com/jordan-neely-daniel-penny-nyc-subway-chokehold-video/13223021/

"Daniel Penny's press release is not an apology nor an expression of regret. It is a character assassination and a clear example of why he believed he was entitled to take Jordan's life. In the first paragraph, he talks about how 'good' he is and the next paragraph he talks about how 'bad' Jordan was in an effort to convince us Jordan's life was 'worthless.' The truth is, he knew nothing about Jordan's history when he intentionally wrapped his arms around Jordan's neck, and squeezed and kept squeezing. In the last paragraph, Daniel Penny suggests that the general public has shown 'indifference' for people like Jordan, but that term is more appropriately used to describe himself. It is clear he is the one who acted with indifference, both at the time he killed Jordan and now in his first public message. He never attempted to help him at all. In short, his actions on the train, and now his words, show why he needs to be in prison," attorneys Donte Mills and Lennon Edwards said.

This was their statement last friday:

"The law firm of Raiser and Kenniff, P.C. represents Daniel Penny, a 24-year-old college student and Marine veteran. Earlier this week Daniel Penny was involved in a tragic incident on the NYC Subway, which ended in the death of Jordan Neely.

"We would first like to express, on behalf of Daniel Penny, our condolences to those close to Mr. Neely. Mr. Neely had a documented history of violent and erratic behavior, the apparent result of ongoing and untreated mental illness. When Mr. Neely began aggressively threatening Daniel Penny and the other passengers, Daniel, with the help of others, acted to protect themselves, until help arrived. Daniel never intended to harm Mr. Neely and could not have foreseen his untimely death.

"For too long, those suffering from mental illness have been treated with indifference. We hope that out of this awful tragedy will come a new commitment by our elected officials to address the mental health crisis on our streets and subways."

Hopefully the indictment is illuminating, it should be published tomorrow when he appears for arraignment.

Grayson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559477#Comment_120559477

One thing, they weren't trapped in the carriage with him. Apparently the doors were open and the train was stopped. People could just walk out.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120585565#Comment_120585565

So the DA doesn't see it fit to put forward a murder charge and is at best, manslaughter, as some of the more level headed, less colour focused folk have been saying since the start. Now lets see what happens. I personally don't see even a manslaughter charge going through on this, even in NYC. Be interesting to see how the case progresses.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584603#Comment_120584603

Homicide simply means the killing if a human by another. It's not a crime in itself and has no relationship to whether something is murder. The coroner determining it is homicide is meaningless.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120585408#Comment_120585408

Exactly. I pointed this out few pages ago. The entire cae is about the fact he held on so long that he strangled the guy. And not that he intervened in the first place

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120587957#Comment_120587957

“Homicide means conduct which causes the death of a person under circumstances constituting murder, manslaughter in the first degree, manslaughter in the second degree, or criminally negligent homicide. N.Y. Penal Law § 125.00”

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120587980#Comment_120587980

The coroner is not directly involved in the legal system, he/she just reports on their medical findings. So, the legal language of homicide cannot be taken from the coroners findings.

Homicide Definition - "the killing of one person by another"

So the word itself could be used to describe any self defense, or purely accidental killings, such as a stunt man being thrown down the stairs by an actor in a planned scene, but for whatever reason it went wrong and the stunt man died.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120588474#Comment_120588474

The coroner is not directly involved in the legal system

You keep firing from the hip.

A coroner or medical examiner has jurisdiction and authority to investigate the death of every person dying within his county, or whose body is found within the county, which is or appears to be:

(a) A violent death, whether by criminal violence, suicide or casualty;

(b) A death caused by unlawful act or criminal neglect;

(c) A death occurring in a suspicious, unusual or unexplained manner;

(d) A death caused by suspected criminal abortion;

(e) A death while unattended by a physician, so far as can be discovered, or where no physician able to certify the cause of death as provided in the public health law and in form as prescribed by the commissioner of health can be found;

(f) A death of a person confined in a public institution other than a hospital, infirmary or nursing home.

N.Y. County Law § 673 (McKinney).

They're elected officials that have to hold accredited medical qualifications. They're directly involved in the legal system. They're not amateurs with dismissible opinions.

joseywhales

I had always thought there was a general acceptance in civilized society that one should not be physically violent with another unless one has received violence first, it's certainly how I have operated without failing for my entire life. Do people not get this very simple rule of humanity?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583935#Comment_120583935

Have you personally verified this eyewitness account?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120588692#Comment_120588692

Careful you might blow the lid on the whole case. 😂

Scraping a barrel there. Instead, do you have any eyewitness accounts you can share, or videos, that evidence any clapping? 😶

The only reports of "clapping" I see online in relation to this incident were members of Sean Hannity's production team/a guest clapping/hooting off screen as they learned the killer was a marine vet.

https://cdn.jwplayer.com/previews/BNSZQMWL

markodaly

I was dead right in my earlier comments that the DA wouldn't be issuing murder charges here and they would go for a lesser charge.

Yesterday we found out that Daniel Penny will face Manslaughter charges for the death of Jordan Neely. I wonder will the other two men who assisted him also face charges of being accessories to this death.

I would wager that even here if the case goes to a full trial and jury, it will be hard to get a conviction.

The best bet would be for the DA to try and get a plea deal, get Penny to serve 6 months in jail and that will be that.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65573879

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120588697#Comment_120588697

OK, so you didnt.

Amazing that you set the bar high for others, but not yourself.

Ironic eh?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120588712#Comment_120588712

I don't recall ever asking if anyone else in the thread had "personally verified" an eyewitness account?

If you can just show me evidence for that I will accept your charge of irony/hypocrisy/setting a higher bar for you than I do for me.

Until then

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120588716#Comment_120588716

Eh, yea... you did...

A bit awkward for you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575531#Comment_120575531

So some eyewitness accounts we need to 'personally verify'

But others, we take at face value, depending on your point of view and how the eyewitness accounts back up one's argument, of course.

Scarlett.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120588775#Comment_120588775

No, its a fact. His name was Juan Alberto Vasquez, and he is from Mexico. He came to the US 6 years ago.

But you never personally verified this?

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120588540#Comment_120588540

You keep twisting the meaning of what people (and articles) say. The Coroner may be an elected, or appointed official in the US, but their responsibility is to decide the manner of ones death in suspicious, or violent circumstances. It is not to make a ruling on whether the death was by murder, which is what you are suggesting loosely with the word "homicide". If you need another link to the definition, I can help you out there. Just ask and I will provide a linked definition.

So....

The coroner's primary duty in contemporary times is to make inquiry into the death and complete the certificate of death. The coroner assigns a cause and manner of death and lists them on the certificate of death. The cause of death refers to the disease, injury or poison that caused the death.

Source

Being the US of mixed laws and jurisdictions, the coroner might not even be medically trained (what a fúcking joke right there) and they might be called to decide if death was by suicide, or even by others. I find it both concerning and amusing that some jurisdictions don't require a coroner to have any medical training and yet they are tasked to give an opinion on cause of death. American lunacy.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120588806#Comment_120588806

I did, as much as you did.