Jordan Neely killed by chokehold on subway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120560472#Comment_120560472

Are you asking for examples of black on white crime?

amacca

Maybe if stupid crazy people didn't fo stupid crazy things....stupid crazy **** wouldn't happen to them.

If he had been put in a chokehold for just sitting there minding his own business I'd think the marine should be charged with murder etc as it is I'm of the opinion he started it so that very much ameliorates what the marines punishment should be....if a drug addled howya scrote started screaming and behaving aggressively on the Dart/train/bus etc I'd be glad if someone intervened and put him in a chokehold tbh...and if things went wrong for the scrote....cest la vie.....tbh if he did approach and you had to do that out of fear for your safety you couldn't release the little **** anyway for fear of violent reprisals......imo ultimately the responsibility for what happens should rest with the instigator in a situation where you could plausibly fear for your own physical safety/life due to their actions.

Perhaps the criminal justice system should be sued by the passengers and marine for not keeping the mentally deranged potential danger to ordinary passengers off the streets...or the transport authority for letting him on a subway....whatever was done before about the behaviour doesn't appear to have worked.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120560298#Comment_120560298

why would any security or policeman bother to get involved in a inter-passenger dispute as the risks to them in such a charged atmosphere where the slightest misstep risks civil and criminal penalties

I am not getting involved in any discussion on racism, as we know nothing about the intention behind the event.

This however, is just plainly false. Time and again police in the United States have behaved completely recklessly with lethal consequences and it has been decreed that they are above any repercussions. The bar to have qualified immunity not absolve their actions is enormously high.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120560629#Comment_120560629

We know all about the intentions of the people and organisations who are blowing this event up simply because it's a black man who died at the hands of a white man

ceadaoin.

I saw a video and it's not just the marine restraining him, think it was 3 people and they aren't all white. He was threatening people and has assaulted several people in the past, including an elderly woman. I think the regular subway passengers were fully aware of what he was like and that's why they took action. Obviously he shouldn't have died but it wasn't a malicious attack out of nowhere.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120560756#Comment_120560756

I can not speak for them.

However, this was clearly a grossly disproportionate response that has resulted in the death of someone for being essentially loud-mouthed.

He was threatening people and has assaulted several people in the past, including an elderly woman

I don't think his past offences are particularly relevant. As in most of these cases, the chances that the accused knew about them are slim.

I agree it didn't come out of nowhere, but its a highly disproportionate and completely reckless response that showed no care whatsoever for the life of another human.

ceadaoin.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120560830#Comment_120560830

I think it was well known amongst the regular passengers what he was like and that he was a danger. There was a post on Reddit from 9 years ago warning about him. Seems like his mental state had deteriorated in the years since and he had become even more violent. I wonder if anyone tried to help him. The whole thing is sad really

maninasia

If you ever ride the subway there usually whites are in a minority. Bet you it was the same for that carriage.

The subway has always been full of nutters. Chokehold looks like wrongful death case though.

lizzyjane

Why is race important in this context? Only brainwashed poster boys by the American media will parrot the race card in cases like this. This is a man with some very serious previous crimes which includes trying to kidnap a 7 year old child dragging her down the street, he also has attacked two OAP's causing one a lady to be hospitalised with serious facial injuries. Unfortunately he was a danger to himself and others and paid the ultimate price with his life.

Danzy

He protected the community, Neely can't hurt his family anymore.

The only things in life that he lived for.

Not for the first time you are bemoaning the taking out of a violent threat to a community of colour, as if you enjoy them having to live with violent offenders. You certainly enjoy them dying and don't hide it.

This young man stood up and said no more and stopped Neely's attacks.

I'm sure some of your best friends are African American Overheal. Isn't that the line people like you always use.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120559477#Comment_120559477

Without knowing the facts here, it best not to shout "racism"

Where did I do that?

Restricting the air intake of an individual for 15 minutes until he is dead is homicide.

There is no self defence angle here, he is going to prison.

ceadaoin.

I'm sure the parents of the 7 year old he tried to abduct and the elderly woman he severely injured would have been happy if someone restrained him. I don't think the guy will be incarcerated but it's possible I suppose.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120561536#Comment_120561536

You don't think a guy who strangled someone to death in the middle of the day on a train will be incarcerated?

I mean he killed someone and is clearly a danger to the public.

I am aware it's America, but on what grounds do you think this guy escapes some sort of custodial sentence?

Backstreet Moyes

No longer a danger to innocent kids or the elderly.

The world is a better place without him,but ye I expect the Marine will go down for manslaughter.

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120560131#Comment_120560131

I can not say (anecdote I know) that anyone I have ever trained or trained with in Jujitsu over the last 16+ years fails to understand the difference between a dominant position of control - and that of submission. Even the children I train know this. The reason you are getting a submission much of the time in Jujitsu is because some area of that persons skeleton is literally about to snap or dislocate - or the supply of blood to their brain is actually being cut off and they are moments away from sleepy land. My daughter is 12 and slight and feminine as befits her age and I have seen her tap out 25 year old male weight lifting wrestler types. She knows the power of that submission and the responsibility of it too.

The idea that any of these kids or students would think it a good idea to maintain a submission position as a form of medium or long term restraint or control is completely alien to me. If there are people who have been trained in such things who are walking around with the notion you describe - and I am not saying I doubt your appraisal - then their teachers have failed them. Badly. And it is very depressing to me.

That people who do not train it but only watch it might think this however is not that much of a shock to me. After all at the age of 44 I am of an age that I witnessed some interesting and sometimes awful injuries that would occur amongst other school boys in my childhood who were emulating what they say on WWF. A depressing number of which was them hurting themselves or others trying to emulate the "drop kick" the "Ultimate Warrior" used to do. Let alone the "Tombstone" move the "Undertaker" used to do.

I have no doubt people walk away from a good broadcast of MMA thinking they know how to fight now too. Too little knowledge on a subject can be more dangerous than no knowledge at all sometimes.

No idea what training the marine in this story did or did not have. I know non Marines like Joe Rogan and actual army types like Jokko Willink have lamented that there is not enough (sometimes no) training of things like Jujitsu in some areas of the army, police and other first responders and front liners. One boardsie in Germany was only recently telling me how his Jujisu school has partnered with the city Ambulance personnel and other medical first responders to teach them to defend themselves which I think is great. But if that Marine got actual training from a superior on how to do a choke hold and he was left with the notion that this is a legitimate way to control someone for 15 minutes - then that marine was failed and failed badly. But people around him - it seems - were shouting at him that he was harming or killing the guy and he did not stop. Whatever the reason for this - I think a prosecution is right and necessary if this is true. But I know not nearly enough to really comment.

Star Bingo

https://youtu.be/rtLdvG_nv54

✨✨✨✨✨✨✨✨✨✨✨✨✨✨✨✨✨

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120561536#Comment_120561536

You don't think someone who slowly and methodically killed someone in public will be incarcerated?

Yes the whole situation is sad, and clearly there were deep problems with Neely. But there are many, many good reasons we do not allow random vigilante "justice", particularly such wildly disproportionate acts. Jury trials are inherently unpredictable, but he has no legitimate defence.

Burty330

Eye witnesses on the scene who witnessed Nelly acting crazy will provide the marine with a defense. It won't keep him out of jail but may get him a shorter sentence. There are a lot of details yet to be revealed. Whats known about Neely is he was a menace to the public with a 44 felony rap sheet including slapping up elderly people. Its disingenuous to say the marine killed a man who was very likely having another violent outburst . His death was accidental

A more tragic case is the killing of Lauren Heike. Why did the op think that sad story was not thread worthy..

Overheal

“Racial disparities in charging”

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/06/jordan-neely-killing-racial-disparities-justice-system

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120562615#Comment_120562615

His death was accidental

No it wasn't, you choke someone for 15 minutes and death is pretty much inevitable.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120562012#Comment_120562012

Yeah one of the things I found funny when I trained BJJ back before you started was kids being taught submissions, not appropriate for them. Not suprised it's still happening today. Heres a reality, you will reproduce whatever you train under duress even if it's not appropriate, which is what this guy did. Not really his fault, he's not a professional using force like a cop, where they have their ducks lined up in a row with an esaclation pyramid etx.

The US marine corps teach (or used to) a good deal of BJJ as part of their combat program, ironically because their old LINE system was considered unsuitable for peace keeping scenarios as it was all about lethality

Interesting to see the narrative that he was choking this guy for 15 minutes take hold.

Long Sean Silver

if you knowingly prevent someone from breathing for 15 mins. that's murder in my book.

the fact he had military training would further underline that he must have know the grave consequences of what he was doing. also he was under no immediate threat. Murder all day long for me.

Burty330

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120563077#Comment_120563077

The study cited here from 5 years ago is countrywide and not exclusive to NYC therefore the data is being misinterpreted.

The whole article is built upon an assumption and is completely unaware of the Bail Reform Act passed in 2020. There's also no mention of the murder of Lauren Heike anywhere on that site. . The Guardian is piss journalism.

jam_mac_jam

This is a horrifically sad story and nobody gave a **** about this man before he died. And now he just becomes a symbol for the predictable sides using his death for their own arguments. When the same people would step over him on the street.

I don't think the important thing is the mans race or if this was a terrible accident or the man who killed him was a racist murderer. Its just how little care or help homeless people who have mental heath problems are. He may have been threatening the people, he may have not have deserved what happened or it may have been a horrible accident.

But for me its just horribly sad that he had to die for anyone to care about him.

martingriff

Was this a racial attack? No.

The army vet saw a situation and decided to help. The choke hold for 15 minutes but I don't think he was looking to kill him. Loads have been mentioned about choke holds but the guy was not thinking. It does not matter what this person has done we can not just let people off because this guy is a bad person.

Unfortunately the USA have a terrible record with mental health and helping

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120564013#Comment_120564013

Who needs evidence and due process when we have all knowing experts like you who can save us all the trouble the presumption of innocence and the legal process causes?

His military training may have been the problem, as it wouldn't be as appropriate as the training a PO receives on restraining or choke holding. There are also different types of choke hold suitable for different circumstances. The death might also be partially drug or health related. In any case, it's only murder if the intention was to kill. I'd say that's highly unlikely.

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120563999#Comment_120563999

Straying off topic so I will keep it short. But in general - though I am sure we can think of extreme counter examples - I do not think teaching children anything is inappropriate. It is how you teach them - the context you teach them - and what you teach around it - that is appropriate or inappropriate. What you are teaching though - generally not so much.

Teaching Submissions to kids is not inappropriate at all in my view. Not even a little. However anyone I have ever taught - young or old - I always teach them a lot around that. For example with the rear naked choke. Usually I start my teaching around it by asking them what they think they are doing in the submission. You get the usual answers like "Winning the game" "Making the other player give up" and many other answers. In the end I tell them "No - what you are doing is you are killing them". Of course you do not kill them because they tap out and submit. But what you are actively doing - and what you need to be aware you are doing - is actively engaging in the process of killing another person.

And we teach our students young and old - more than anything else - absolute care for your sparring partners. The tap/submission is sacred. And if your opponent ever stops struggling or fighting back or goes limp - which thankfully I have only ever seen once - you let the hell go instantly and call for medic or assistance loudly.

I really do not know enough about this particular thread's story to comment - so I will not comment and leave it to juries and peers and people in the know - but I wonder if it had been me teaching this marine about the choke and not whoever did teach him - would it have gone different. I much doubt that even one person I have ever trained - or trained with - would ever consider a submission as a medium or long term control method. If this Marine did think that - something went very wrong somewhere in his training.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120564247#Comment_120564247

 In any case, it's only murder if the intention was to kill.

This is not correct. It can be murder just from an intention to cause harm that causes death of a reckless indifference to your actions causing death.

Recklessly caused the death of another person under the conditions that showed that you had a depraved indifference for human life,

Again, that's up to the courts, but his military training should have informed him that what he was doing was likely to ultimately result in death.

supermans ghost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120560830#Comment_120560830

Oh please, get off your high horse with your sanctimonious claptrap. If you were in that situation confronted on a New York subway by a man acting in that manner, your first instinct is for the safety of your loved ones and yourself along with any other innocents. The marine should not be prosecuted or at worst a suspended sentence.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120566829#Comment_120566829

The USA legally defines murder as “the unlawful killing of a human being with malice”. Based on what we know, I would say that malice was absent from this killing and it would be very difficult to prove otherwise.

Unless you know how marines are trained; specifically with regard to restraint or choke holds, it’s not appropriate to suggest that his training would inform him that his action would likely lead to death.

His restraint may have been just right, but if the guy being restrained was in poor health and/or on drugs, that could easily be a contributing factor to his demise.