Has the USA gone totally crazy?

Count Dracula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120568775#Comment_120568775

winner

HildaOgdenx

Mod - Moved to CA where it is better suited.

Local charter now applies.

Hilda

Yes, they have gone crazy. They have a mental health problem.

1 in 6 American adults take a psychiatric drug. Some of these drugs are linked to spree shootings.

Their mental health problems are caused in part by poor physical health. The hardware that runs your mind is housed in your body; mental and physical health are inextricably linked. 66% of adults take a prescription medication, that points to a diseased population.

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573629#Comment_120573629

We better watch out then.

We tend to copy the yanks and the Brits in many aspects of our own society. Our obesity and mental health problems are soaring in this country too.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574092#Comment_120574092

We better watch out then.

idk that might make you seem “obsessed”

PopePalpatine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570858#Comment_120570858

To that I have just two words: Joe Manchin. On top of that, I'd hazard a guess that there's maybe 10 Democratic Senators who represent states that are nearly as conservative as his (West Virginia) in one way or another, and that's even before you factor in any Representatives in the same boat.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120573629#Comment_120573629

Where are the overweight mass shooters then?

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574097#Comment_120574097

Taking measures to make sure our society doesn't repeat any mistakes made in US society isn't obsession. It's just sensible. Who the hell wants this mayhem to arrive on our shores? And it very well could if we don't get a handle on the root causes. Because this is human behaviours.

Since you make so many threads on here covering violence in the US, what is your opinion on the underlying causes? At least if you were "monitoring" this stuff with an eye towards better understanding it... that might have some utility. Rather than just enjoying posting about disaster porn for it's entertainment value!

I have an interest in these incidents, not as rubber necking bystander, but rather because it's a very peculiar type of motivation that drives it. The desire to harm innocent people in large numbers. I don't think it's helpful to drive a wedge between people along ideological or political lines, as very often happens in the US. I think this is just an unhelpful sideshow.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574223#Comment_120574223

Why would I comment here on those threads you want squelched?

When you do it “oh we’re just watching out for dangers if we post about it it’s just sensible” but if I post about it apparently it’s “obsessing” and it’s a site wide problem requiring multiple megathreads and help desk posts.

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574307#Comment_120574307

Big surprise you've zero interest in actually trying to understand the issues involved.

You're obsessed with disaster porn. And pushing a particular narrative.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574505#Comment_120574505

The last poster who accused me of pushing a particular narrative had to issue me an apology yesterday.

I don’t post “disaster porn” either.

A few neo nazi annd racist killings happen and get threads and everyone loses their minds. Nobody ran to feedback forum though 2 weeks ago when I posted a thread about a trans shooter: tell me what narrative I was pushing then?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058295599/has-the-usa-gone-totally-crazy

Where did you actually read that statistic?

Isn't a mass shooting where two or more people are involved?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570736#Comment_120570736

It's the standard right-wing 2d amendment deflection round one. It's farcical to compare traffic deaths in the US to Ireland. Far, FAR higher traffic volumes, densities, numbers of people driving, etc. Roads in Ireland would be at best backwaters in the US, the M series of roads is about on par with a good state system, nothing like an Interstate in terms of volume or capacity. Irelands road capacity wouldn't rank with a typical major city in the US, like LA or Phoenix or Houston.

Next up will be arguing the statistics, but really, it's the guns. Even little Serbia, with its recent outbreak of mass shootings, is talking about reducing gun ownership. That can never happen in the US, so dead people don't really matter.

Life has become cheap in the US. It's why at least 1 poster here, on one of the abortion threads, was cool with the percentage of women dying during pregnancy who could've been saved by abortion. Lives really don't matter.

Something like 20 million AR-15 type guns owned in the US (that's what's known about - after all, there's no federal register and many states are extremely cavalier about firearm purchase and ownership.) That's lots of hunting and home defense, uh-huh, with a military rifle.

Sudden Valley

https://news.sky.com/story/americas-10-most-deadly-mass-shootings-of-2023-12875292

I see Sky noted the definition of a mass shooting being four or more people (excluding the perpetrator) shot at roughly the same time and location, regardless of fatalities or motives. Seems to be along running problem that was only briefly paused during Covid lockdowns

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574560#Comment_120574560

So what happens to your gun law argument, when anyone can build something like an AR-15 in their own home without the need to use a gun store etc? How do you stop that?

How do strict gun laws prevent someone who is motivated, from fabricating something well away from the eyes of authorities and back round checks etc?

It will be like trying to ban knives... impossible.

greencap

Those who fetishize weapons, and think of firearms as toys or accessories own some tiny little piece of the responsibility for all these shootings.

(There are one or two such characters on this forum)

Overheal

We can still manage to better regulate conveniently mass produced and widely sold weapons though. Yes a very determined killer will 3D Print or manufacture anything but among the mass shooters the US has seen remarkably few of them would have had the wherewithal to manufacture their own gun or even reload their own ammo (heck most people reading this probably thinking I mean simply putting bullets into the clip, no, reloading of ammo).

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574560#Comment_120574560

Home defense with an AR15 means your more than likely to kill your neighbors and their dogs just much as your going to kill any intruder

Sudden Valley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574617#Comment_120574617

I think you'll find they have banned the sale of more lethal knives in England due to the amount of knife related crimes in London in the past few years. You could also make building your own guns or certain type of guns illegal. Most citizens do not want to be on the wrong side of the law and I dont think alot of people would have the skill to create their own guns.

Comparing guns with any other weapon is a bit difficult tough given a gun is so easy to kill with and easy to use compared to any other weapon. Just last month a Virginia teacher was shot by her 6 year old student- guns are just so easy to do damage with.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574617#Comment_120574617

Nothing, but if they are found in possession of an unregistered weapon of war (for example), there can be a law in place to confiscate that weapon and put the person behind bars. That'll be disincentive enough.

The weakness of the 'no law can prevent <blah>' argument is that, Congress can't create them and the States are all over the map. The SCOTUS also is very permissive of gun ownership due to fetishizing 'originalism' without understanding it (at least, Alito and Thomas).

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574657#Comment_120574657

thats what worries me the most about apartment living. This is timber construction. If police knock on my neighbors at 2 in the morning my head is resting about 10 feet away from their front door behind 2 inches of light wall. Not as if we don’t have news stories about cop shootouts turning deadly for bystanders in neighboring apartments. Bullets wizzed through neighbors units while they executed Breonna Taylor.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574657#Comment_120574657

But, right now in many US states, if you can convince a prosecutor you were 'standing your ground,' you can do this without consequence. If last week's Texas mass murderer who came over and massacred his neighbors who had the temerity to ask him to not shoot at night in his yard as they had a baby sleeping there (he tried to shoot the baby, too,) if instead the neighbors had come over to ask him and he started shooting them on his property, he might've gotten away with it.

That's how cheap life has become in the US. It's o.k. to shoot people you don't like and you might get away with it depending on where and when. With a weapon that's designed for mass casualty creation.

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574664#Comment_120574664

It's ridiculously easy to make a very dangerous knife in your shed with a bit of scrap metal. And there are many people who do it as a hobby, selling them privately. There are no shortage of sharp knives for any thugs out there who like to carry them. Makes zero difference if you ban them.

And it's going the same way with firearms. The knowledge, materials and tools needed to fabricate them are becoming easier and easier to acquire.... eventually it will make gun laws essentially null and void.

The conservatives in the US have always wanted to eliminate the gatekeepers that regulate and monitor gun ownership. And they're succeeding. Guns are not a complicated piece of equipment, and this makes it almost impossible to regulate their fabrication and distribution.

So much so, that I can see gun violence spreading to places that previously had no real gun culture or issues before. We've seen how knife crime can become a problem almost overnight in some places.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574733#Comment_120574733

Knives in every kitchen in America but we don’t have mass knifings or people knifing people for ringing their doorbell etc. and politicians don’t spread Christmas photos of the family holding up their own personal chef knives. The perversion in the United States as you suggest is the culture around guns.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574733#Comment_120574733

Where will you get the ammunition? You can, of course today in the US, buy all the materials to make your own bullets.

However, if your purchase of ammunition were regulated, and you tried to make it yourself, that falls short when it comes to modern gunpowder. Today's weapons don't run on black powder anymore, which is the only thing you can probably make at home, unless you're keen on learning to make your own nitroglycerin. Good luck with that, might not have to worry about the neighbors for all that long if you try it yourself.

Of course, you could build a few muskets or a Colt six-shooter or a zip gun. Not likely your home-made AR's gonna run on your home-made bullets.

kneemos

America's biggest gun fair. No background check except not looking crazy.

https://youtu.be/LmJkxCpSKMY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120571159#Comment_120571159

clapping when a plane lands…

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574744#Comment_120574744

Right, so if you had a knife culture... and there were lots of knife massacres... do you solve this by trying to make it very difficult for people to get a knife? (they've tried this in London for example, and it hasn't worked)

Or do something about the underlying reasons why people are motivated to go out and harm people with a weapon?

Look in prisons, you can confiscate diy shanks... but 5 minutes later they will have fabricated new ones. You have to tackle the mentality and culture of violence that motivates someone to use a weapon.

You'll never stop bad people in the US from getting a firearm. You might be able to reduce the amount of people who are motivated to commit such acts, if you work hard enough to understand the reasons.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574764#Comment_120574764

Sorry but this is a poorly informed take. You can definitely reload ammo for modern weapons with materials purchased on the market. Nitroglycerin is simply included in the powder sold conventionally - that is literally modern gunpowder for you.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574733#Comment_120574733

I disagree that it makes zero difference, it makes some small difference in the short term and maybe a modest difference to the culture in the long term.

The idea is not to achieve perfection - a state where nobody can commit mass killings.

The idea is to do what you can.

There never has been a point in modern history where someone couldnt dodge the laws and find some way to cause a massacre, but because we cant perceive that which never happened, we can never know of all those marginal cases where yes, a law did get in the way and did prevent bloodshed.

I.e. we never hear the story of the mass shooting which the gunman didnt commit because the various paperwork and waiting times got in the way, ... instead he just went and jumped off a cliff or whatever. We dont get to hear of those 'would have happened' events.

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574764#Comment_120574764

It's very easy to make ammo too.

The whole prepping community in the US has been mastering that art for many years now.

Regulating and banning stuff never works in the long run. We've seen this with so many issues in society... and big surprise it's been a giant failure with firearms too. And it will continue to be a failure, particularly because of how many industrious people are motivated to ensure it fails.

Which means society has no real choice, other than to focus their efforts elsewhere.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574764#Comment_120574764

With 3D printed firearms will come 3d printed cases in metal or polymers and there will be plenty of self confessed anarchists willing to make it happen sooner or later,

Only watched a video yesterday showing a young lad (early 20s) showing off the first fully, 3d printed assault rifles ,

Larbre34

A very poor level of education twinned with a high level of blind zealotry, is a lethal combination.

It seems to me that there are in fact more than enough anti-gun thinkers and voters in the US, even in the crimson States, to out-lobby and out-vote the gun lobby and its acolytes. But if they are not minded to create a mass civil protest movement against the deaths of all these people, then their blood is on their hands too, as a manifestation of apathy.

What this will take, is nothing less than the scale of the civil rights marches and anti-Vietnam War protests of decades past, yet there is basically no prospect of it.

The biggest contribution Joe Biden could make to his own legacy, is to sign executive orders banning semi-automatic long guns and high capacity shotguns and encouraging all Democrat Governors and State Assemblies to do the same, then face down the inevitable legal action and protest and in turn galvanise a grass roots anti-gun movement similar to what we have seen in the aftermath of Roe v Wade ending, which has seen brave representatives in red State legislatures actually go against conservative colleagues to protect women's health rights.

In fact, the most progressive thing that could have happened to abortion rights is for Roe V Wade to have been struck down by the USSC, because if forced people into action to get ahead of it instead of relying what was always a flimsy protection of case law rather than legislation.

Nothing less than a provoked action like this, around gun laws, will start the necessary change.

greencap

Get rid of assault charges so.

They dont work. I read about punchups and muggings all the time. The law against smashing each other in the jaw doesnt work perfectly so therefore its useless.

People will always find a way to hit people, and theyre always going to.

So theres no point. Perfection or nothing. Those are our options.

taxAHcruel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120570916#Comment_120570916

Five does seem rather young to be sure. But that said there is about 10 questions I would ask in an anecdote like that - including what kind of "gun" it actually was exactly - before I would comment or find it worrying. There is such a range of things that fall under the single word "gun" for a start. Hell - tongue in cheek here - I had a spud gun when I was 5. Satisfying little thing it was too. But there are other guns you certainly would not put in the hands of a 5 year old for all kinds of reasons including the damage recoil could do to their small frame.

I would also be curious what they actually meant by "bought her" a gun. There is just too much information missing to really respond to a story like that.

An example to kinda clarify what I mean by that:

My daughter is 12. Through a friend her and I have been learning to shoot pistols and rifles for some time now. We both really enjoy it. It started in my head when I saw this twitter post here 6 years ago from a you tuber I like - which sparked later some conversations with a gun owning friend of mine - which later again sparked us going out to try some ourselves.

https://twitter.com/smartereveryday/status/861052231617064962?s=20

When we do it however we are doing it solely with weapons owned by said friend. Which is fine by him and us. But in the end I am constantly using his weapons and putting wear and tear on them for free. What I could do - or could have done - is given money to that friend and said "Could you get a rifle for us that you keep on your site only for our use so every time we come we are using our own and not always using yours?".

Functionally nothing would have changed. We would still be going to the same place and doing that exact same thing. So nothing at all shocking. However if my daughter started going around saying "My dad bought me a rifle when I was 8" people would probably seriously double take and have quite a reaction because that sounds genuinely weird without background and context. That sentence uttered alone without a shred of context would likely sound bloody insane.

A lot of things do come down to what people even on this thread have termed "Gun Culture". I think there is a lot of nuance to have in conversations between looking at guns as being a problem in and of themselves and "gun culture". They are not - for me - even remotely the same conversation. There is also a phrase that I hear people reel off thoughtlessly but I think there is a lot of nuance and content to be found behind it which is that "The US has a mental health crisis that is disguising itself as a gun crisis".

Whatever is going on in the USA is to my mind vastly multi factorial. But our human minds really want and prefer a single point explanation or solution. I do not feel the USA is particularly uniquely "going crazy" however. One blog I read is posting daily updates on what is happening in Iran for example where everything from civil unrest to acid attacks on the faces of school girls are happening simply because women won't wear scarves on their heads when they are told to. Ok a massive over simplification of what is going on there perhaps - but it often feels like our species is going crazy - or has been crazy for a long long time - rather than specifically the USA.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574909#Comment_120574909

No the only lasting solution for now at least is even more guns:

When the Black Panthers took up rifles in California, governor Ronald Reagan wasted zero time or effort immediately banning “assault weapons”

Not until more of the minority groups that conservatives perpetually “other,” themselves become armed to the teeth, will those conservative groups relent and finally say “hey maybe it’s crazy that everyone has guns now” when they see black trans drag queens marching with their rifles as lawfully as Kyle Rittenhouse.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574902#Comment_120574902

These types tend to give themselves away (Youtube videos?) Again, if there were legislation in place restricting this behavior, problem solved. Criminalize what's criminal. It could be Congress decides its perfectly legal to print your weapons - as long as you put them in the national registry database (which of course is one of the things that most on both sides of the debate support, but the right-wing nutters prevent from happening).

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574850#Comment_120574850

Again, that's just fatalistic apologia. Of course government can regulate behaviors. You have to wear a seatbelt now, don't you? And, if Congress can legislate to restrict some of the behaviors your describe, that'll solve the problem. Doing nothing solves nothing.

As for preppers, well, they really don't matter now, do they? It's ammosexual cosplay as a rule, and good or bad, the government has better weapons.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574166#Comment_120574166

There are plenty of overweight mass-shooters. Lots of chunkers here:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FS8fBkdacAEqE9N.jpg

However I did not specifically mention overweight; so that rebuttal of yours is perhaps a self-defense mechanism. I said poor physical health without elaboration. A country where 66% of adults are on medication is obviously an unhealthy one, given that healthy people do not need medicine. A country with a high rate of physical ill-health will inevitably have poor mental health also.

Go back several decades and you have more guns, less restrictions (freely available automatics etc), better physical health, better mental health, lower use of prescription drugs. And surprise - fewer mass shootings.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575051#Comment_120575051

What research do you have on the subject, linking health condition to mass shooting perpetration?

I asked about overweight because that’s stupid easy for us plebes to determine. Harder to uncover someone’s medical records even after they’ve done a shooting, there’s still HIPAA

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575084#Comment_120575084

Do you dispute that American society is physically and mentally unhealthy ?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575088#Comment_120575088

The society is sick and twisted over a lot of things, but we have to deal with incidents on a more individual level. And making claims that suggest most mass shootings happen because of poor health, that seems like a claim worthy of actual verification and data, not prosaic wishy washy logical exercises such as ‘well if you believe the country has gone mad I’m correct’ etc.; that hasn’t actually proved anything claimed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575104#Comment_120575104

America is a physically and mentally unhealthy nation. Statistics for prescribed medications prove this.

American mass-shooters are American, therefore on average they are physically and mentally unhealthy.

Unless you think that mass-shooters are mentally healthier than the national average ..? Which would be a strange claim even for you.

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574933#Comment_120574933

People are talking about laws to make gun ownership more difficult.

They're not really talking about punishment for the acts carried out with guns. Most people in America across the divide, agree on punishment for those who harm innocent people with guns. So your analogy doesn't really make much sense.

When we have Islamic terrorists, for example, do we focus on their chosen method of terror (knife, gun, suicide bomb, vehicle etc) or do we focus on the reasons people become radicalised and want to commit an act of terror?

But yet when someone commits an act of terror with a gun in America, for some people everything hinges on the weapon.... it's all about guns. What about the person with the motivation to harm people?

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575124#Comment_120575124

As I said, if all you have is some prosaic bullshitting to provide as your argument, clearly there is no evidence to prove your claim that mass shootings are correlated with pharmaceutical drugs, or any other clinical condition for that matter. Not exactly seeing any studies from Mayo Clinic, or even Google Scholar, in your post.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575238#Comment_120575238

It's about the ease with which the gun is available to people who shouldn't be let near one. A Winchester 70 or even AR-15 in the hands of someone who has a responsible level of adult composure, more than likely, isn't going to be a danger to anyone. The same weapons, however, should NEVER be given to someone who sports swastika tats and has a history of saying that Hitler was right on social media, or has been in and out of the nut house since they were 10.

Too many Americans seem to think that these items are toys. They're not. They're weapons. And any owner should be subject to the most rigorous of background checks before being sold one. Especially in the light of the numerous mass shootings that we've witnessed over the last 15 years or so.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120574560#Comment_120574560

It is entirely possible to compare US road deaths with those in other countries including Ireland. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and other agencies have done just that and the US fares badly regardless of whether the number of deaths is expressed per capita, per mile driven or relative to the number of vehicles.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7126a1.htm?s_cid=mm7126a1_w

As I said already, there have been 248 people killed in mass shootings in the US so far this year. Road deaths will be approx 15,000 in the same period as things have gotten worse since the CDC did the above report. Many of these deaths are preventable, caused by DUI and other reckless behaviours.

"life has become cheap" - well it certainly sounds so given your dismissive attitude to tens of thousands of road traffic deaths. Instead you, like others want to push a political agenda while consuming mass shooting disaster porn and asking if the US has "gone totally crazy".

PS an AR-15 type gun is not a military rifle so you're wrong about that too.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575238#Comment_120575238

Children getting ahold of their parents firearms and killing each other is a thing in the US. Barely makes the news. But do tell me, how would you punish such a child? The 6 year old that shot his teacher was of some media interest.

There's too many guns loose in the wild in the US. Full stop. It's not just about the mass shootings - that's horrific, but its a fraction of the gun violence that goes on.

And, uhh, I forget - have the GQP blocked the CDC from researching gun violence? They were blocked for a long time by Congress, I think some paltry amount of $$ is now being used to research and gather data about it. A few millions, but on the US scale that's coins-in-the-sofa level.

Some data: more children under 18 died due to gun violence in 2020 than due to auto accidents.

https://www.prb.org/articles/31780-reasons-to-care-about-gun-violence/

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575373#Comment_120575373

PS an AR-15 type gun is not a military rifle so you're wrong about that too.

Reportedly the original engineer behind the AR-15 never designed the weapon for civilian use.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/family-ar-15-inventor-speaks-out-n593356

The ex-Marine and "avid sportsman, hunter and skeet shooter" never used his invention for sport. He also never kept it around the house for personal defense. In fact, he never even owned one.

"After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle," his family said, explaining that Stoner was "focused on making the most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military."

Stock photo of a marine colonel holding an AR-15 purchased by the military after its original design. March 1967.

He designed the original AR-15 in the late 1950s, working on it in his own garage and later as the chief designer for ArmaLite, a then small company in southern California. He made it light and powerful and he fashioned a new bullet for it — a .223 caliber round capable of piercing a metal helmet at 500 yards.

The Army loved it and renamed it the M16.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120575373#Comment_120575373

AR-15 has military origins, of course the versions produced today skirt the restrictions (like sold not fully automatic, but readily convertible.) Doesn't matter - there are 20 million of them in circulation.

As for your motor vehicle deaths argument, go back to the NRA sites for better deflections. There is enormous work and effort done to improve vehicle and driver safety in the US. There's almost nothing done for gun deaths. They're not comparable, it's just cheap emotional nonsense trying to rope Irish readers into some sort of false equivalence.