Barristers crying about legal aid fees

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582012#Comment_120582012

Yes, you are morally superior — that must be nice.

Why don't you elaborate on your moral superiority and tell us all what you would do to fix the problem and tell us who has the ability and power to fix those problems by re-writing the laws on who gets legal representation and to what standard of care (hint: it's not the lawyers).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582254#Comment_120582254

Its also proven that if there are no repercussions or financial penalties for committing crimes there are those that will rack up tens if not hundreds of offences.

I'd agree that crime would probably increase if you reduced social supports for everybody across the board but I'm only taking removing the supports for those that are repeat offenders these are people that will commit crimes anyway so why give them hundreds of thousands out of the social pot over their lifetimes when they show contempt for society and its laws in general.

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582261#Comment_120582261

I started this thread in the hope of generating some debate about the FLA and whether it's fit for purpose. There's been some good points made so far but it seems to have degenerated into a "bash the barristers" thread which isn't helpful. We do at least seem to have established that the FLA scheme isn't the pot of gold many Boardsies - and I include myself in this - seemed to think it was.

Perhaps we need a new thread debating the FLA scheme itself and what can be done to reform it, along with the bigger issues of sentencing guidelines, prison spaces etc. I still haven't heard anyone explain how a scheme that effectively subsidises and incentivises career criminals is in society's interest. Not am I any the wiser as to how an individual can rack up 150 plus convictions and still be walking the streets.

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582343#Comment_120582343

There's a bigger debate to be had there about the welfare state and how it enables dependency and has created an entitlement culture where people think they can just drop out of society and live on welfare. The days when people were brought up with a work ethic seem to have vanished in many cases. There's nothing like having to work for a living to put manners on people. If people have to hold down a job they're a lot more likely to behave responsibly and stay out of trouble if they know they're going to lose their job when they appear in the papers after a criminal conviction.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582359#Comment_120582359

Here's the thing with "more prison spaces". People don't want to pay for that either when they hear how much it costs to build new prison facilities and the cost of a prison space for a year.

That and the Irish Prison Service and governor of Mountjoy want the prison population capped because even they believe the way we imprison and why isn't working.

Believe it or not, we actually imprison at higher rates than most of Western Europe (about the rate of the UK). Take a look at prisonstudies.org for the breakdown.

We typically have less remand/pre-trial detainees than in continental Europe, but more people in prison following conviction. We are not half the "soft touch" that journal commenters want to believe.

If you're trying to make the case that FLA somehow incentivisies criminal behaviour, I think you're in dreamland. The only thing FLA does is ensure that everyone in the dock gets a fair trial and representation. That's the bedrock of fair justice system whether you like it or don't like it.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582343#Comment_120582343

But didn't we already cut monetary social supports for younger people?

It seems you agree crime will rise, but at the same time want to cut supports.

I think making society less safety is not a solution I'd be on board with.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582389#Comment_120582389

"Welfare States" would have lower criminality statistically.

Also Ireland is at full employment.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582359#Comment_120582359

There's been some good points made so far but it seems to have degenerated into a "bash the barristers" thread which isn't helpful. 

Well you did set the tone by accusing them of conspiracy. 🤷‍♂️

Apparently barristers are not happy about the money they're getting for legal aid. This would seem to run counter to the belief, frequently expressed on Boards - and which I must say I find easy to believe - that one of the reasons why we have such a ludicrously lenient criminal justice system is because the legal profession is rolling in wonga from FLA and it's in their interests to keep even the most violent depraved scummers on the streets racking up convictions in the hundreds

Yurt2

The Court of Justice of the EU and the ECHR have repeatedly reaffirmed that legal aid is an essential part of the "equality of arms" principle in criminal justice.

If anyone is denied access to representation it is by definition an unfair trial and it puts the entire system in the dock.

Journal.ie commentators need to reconcile themselves to this. Every EU country has instituted some sort of legal aid program, because they're obliged to hold-up standards.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582240#Comment_120582240

As many as required. Means tested. But cut out the dossers who are going to the GP weekly with the sniffles that are blocking up the system (and this definitely happens according to a GP friend of mine)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582498#Comment_120582498

Then why does every second bar/cafe/restaurant have notices up looking for staff, and we also have a large cohort of people on jobseekers (who clearly aren't seeking any jobs)?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582724#Comment_120582724

But people with cancer or other severe disease are not "dossers" are they, they are acutely ill?

I'd apply the same logic to free travel and free GP visits. A basic allowance for all, and after you exhaust your annual allowance you pay your way.

So you have watered down to a basic allowance for "dossers" not for all, correct?

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582512#Comment_120582512

I didn't, actually. What I said was that there seemed to be a belief by many posters - which I was sympathetic to - that the legal profession was benefitting greatly from FLA. I did, however, include the caveat that the first article I linked to seemed to contradict that belief. And I've made it clear in my subsequent posts that I accept what Arthur Dayne and other posters are saying about this perception not standing up to the facts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582471#Comment_120582471

I don't see the relevance but yes there were cuts to social welfare for under 26 year old's to encourage them to stay in education and find jobs. Can't really argue with that logic when you say yourself Ireland is at full employment and needs to continue churning out workers that will contribute to the social fund.

The rest was not even close to summarizing what I said. I said those who rack up multiple offences will continue to do so so why reward them with social welfare, free legal aid and free houses. Nobody suggested reducing or removing social benefits from law abiding citizens so in the grand scheme of things it would probably have a marginal effect on crime rates but the state would have more money to spend on those that deserve it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582744#Comment_120582744

I didn't say that cancer patients are dossers. I said the people showing up weekly with the sniffles are dossers, which they are. They clog up the system for patients who really need to be seen, because it's free and they've nothing better to do.

Take away their unlimited GP visits and watch the system open up to those who badly need to see their GP.

Lionel Fusco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582514#Comment_120582514

Ah here you can't be coming in here with your common sense and your facts.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582741#Comment_120582741

According to the industry people who traditionally worked in these roles sought employment elsewhere because of the pandemic.

Again this isn't my opinion we are at full employment, more employed than at any other time in the history of the state.

Your assertion that we have turned into a feckless work shy nation has no basis in reality.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582763#Comment_120582763

Nope you believed the conspiracy.

You don't get to moan about "barrister bashing" when you got the ball rolling.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582776#Comment_120582776

This thread is rapidly descending into a catch-all populist whinge. Dole, health malingerers, free legal aid, soft on crime blah dee blah.

Merry go round of gripes that are either overstated, display an ignorance about the legal system or outright not true. Standard.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582776#Comment_120582776

Come back with those goal posts.

I'd apply the same logic to free travel and free GP visits. A basic allowance for all, and after you exhaust your annual allowance you pay your way.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582775#Comment_120582775

How would the state have more money if crime increases?

Also what about the victims of crime?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582797#Comment_120582797

Indeed. Pure "In my day......" Angry man rant nonsense.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582788#Comment_120582788

You jump to serious conclusions. I didn't say we are a feckless work shy society. But there are thousands who are the definition of your statement. Anybody who is on jobseekers in 2023 should be absolutely grilled as to why they cannot get work, when there are so many places crying out for staff!

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582470#Comment_120582470

I accept everything you've said up to your last paragraph. I'm astonished, frankly, to hear that we're tougher than "most of Western Europe", but if that's what the figures say then fair enough. As far as my comments about FLA incentivising criminals, all I can go on there is simple common sense. Surely it stands to reason that if a recidivist thug knows full well that there'll be no financial consequences for him or his family (i.e. the half dozen kids he's probably fathered by at least two or more mothers at that stage), then that's one less thing he has to worry about before going about his latest spree? These types of people are taught how to game the system from birth. You can be sure that the benefits of FLA is fairly high on the list of things they swap helpful hints and tips about during their open air scumbag masterclass sessions held on the Liffey boardwalk after they all get their FREE methadone fix (free for them of course, paid for, just like FLA, by poor dumb hardworking Johhny and Joan taxpayer).

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582863#Comment_120582863

Bingo card filled.

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582797#Comment_120582797

Heaven forbid that people use an online discussion forum to actually, like, discuss things. Could it possibly be that the reason all of these topics are being raised is because they are actually interlinked?

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582859#Comment_120582859

There are precisely zero developed countries with an absolute zero percent employment rate. We're at functional full employment, our economy is and labour market is running at full clip. What little long term unemployement there is, is about the same as comparable European countries. And those people have problems that would make them unemployable in the first instance.

Labour activation schemes for that cohort is good money after bad because they're problem isn't indolence, they're statistically highly likely to be addicts of one sort or another or have chronic mental health conditions. And then again, people don't want to spend money on that either because of the cry of WASTERS and free this and that.

There's no winning with the angryman front, mostly because they're making up problems that aren't there or radically overstate the ones that are. So there's no point in even trying. All I can say is try to enjoy swimming in the misery, even though it's not good for your wellbeing.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582859#Comment_120582859

So now the rage has moved onto to people on Jobseekers. 😐️

The vast majority of people on Jobseekers are not long term unemployed, they are between jobs for a multitude of reasons.

So no obviously they shouldn't be "grilled" because it will make angry people on the internet feel better, they are perfectly entitled to on job seekers, there is a reason it exists.

Fúck knows what any of this has to do with the topic of thread which is bashing Barristers.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582901#Comment_120582901

You've moved from legal aid to people having children with multiple partners and the Liffey Boardwalk.

No, I've no interest in entering your angryman hall of mirrors.

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582954#Comment_120582954

I'd be a bit more cautious about dismissing people's genuine concerns as "populist whingeing" and "angry old man rants." That kind of arrogant, "we know better than the ignorant little people" attitude is precisely what delivered Brexit. And Trump. And is looking very likely to deliver a Sinn Fein majority government at the next election.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583253#Comment_120583253

Lookit, you're banging on about "scumbag masterclasses", free methadone, and are terribly concerned about who's having children and with who.

It is 100 percent, top-shelf, classic fetid populism powered by anger.

I'll take your febrile claims of "genuine concern" and file them where they deserve to be filed.

And don't even bother anyone's head with invoking Trump when what you typed easily could have come spilling out of his gob. A quick Google could churn out a very comparable statement from him to what you posted.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582809#Comment_120582809

Who says crime will increase? You assume it will but that's not a given.

What about victims of crimes? Did i suggest they should be treated any differently?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583637#Comment_120583637

Who says crime will increase? You assume it will but that's not a given.

You did. 🤷‍♀️

But where has cutting off social supports led to a decrease in crime?

What about victims of crimes? Did i suggest they should be treated any differently?

If crime goes up, the number of victims go up.

You were the one who mentioned monetary value, I think the value in having less victims can't be expressed monetarily.

monkeybutter

you wont find too many barristers representing people for urinating in public or traffic offenses lads

that's about as much as the district court covers

its mostly gardai, the public and a few solicitors and cases come thick and fast, little work to be done

solicitors make a packet gouging people charging 100s and hour for filling out a few forms or writing a letter

you wont find many on the bread line

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583685#Comment_120583685

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582254#Comment_120582254

I think you find it was you that made the assumption that crime would increase 🤔, no real way of knowing what effect removing social supports for repeat offenders would have on crime rates unless we were to trial it. Having no social supports for career criminals may force them into a full time employment to support themselves and their families resulting in them have less time to commit crimes, data shows that rehabilitated criminals that get full time employment shortly after release are less likely to reoffend, that why most prisons focus on giving prisoners the skills required to get them jobs. We are at full employment so they should have no problems finding work.

The current system allows them to continue to commit crimes while ensuring they have a few bob in their back pocket from tax payers that they are commiting the crimes against. If they are caught the state will pay to have somebody negotiate the penalty they recieve which will most likely amount to a slap on the wrist depending on the crime and when they do it the next 100 times the state will continue to pay out to try and reduce the penalty. Surely at some stage they should be saying you're on your own now best of luck or off to jail with you as you are proven to be a menace to society.

I have no issues in law abiding citizens getting social supports or free legal aid for a first or second offence after that I feel you should be on your own.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583831#Comment_120583831

Having no social supports for career criminals may force them into a full time employment

Would you employ a career criminal?

Sure why not, if it helps them get back on track and makes them less of a burden on the state. I'd be delighted to be doing my bit.

Sultan of Bling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583831#Comment_120583831

Career criminals will never be forced into employment.

If they can't get free money from the taxpayer, they'll get free money by other means i.e. criminality

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583952#Comment_120583952

Sure you would. 😂

Anyway instead of internet edgelording societal problems which will only make them worse.

Maybe we should start doing what they have done in other jurisdictions which will actually make a difference.

Invest more in social supports. Drug rehabilitation, decriminalisation, mental health services, education, sports, activities, etc.

As the IPS point out recently up to 70% of inmates have addiction or mental health issues. Tackle that and you will bring down crime and make society better.

But the reality is Ireland is one of the safest countries in the world, the narrative that it is a crime riddled shít hole which is often citied is not reflected in actual reality.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584007#Comment_120584007

if I was in prison I'd be a bit anxious and depressed myself, oh wait now I'm in the 70%, its not that they are depressed when they are robbing your grannys tv

cause and effect

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120585555#Comment_120585555

😅 Robbing TVs is a very 1980s offence, back when televisions were quite expensive relative to income. I can't even remember the last time I even heard of anyone's TV getting robbed, and I suspect thieves don't even bother any more, not even off yer granny.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120585712#Comment_120585712

My house was burgled in 2009. They took my TV along with a pile of other stuff. In and out through the front window. One of the pillow cases was taken too. Not the pillow, just the pillow case. We reckon they used it as a sack for the bottles of perfume, jewellery etc. that they also took.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120585712#Comment_120585712

lad they will rob anything they can take, TVs can be anywhere from 500 to 2000, dead easy to shift on

i know people who had fridges taken, some of them can be nuts prices too, it wasn't a candy

i mean of course they prefer cash jewellery etc but sure thats thin on the ground these days

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120584007#Comment_120584007

Of course you're right, there's no law and order problem in Ireland at all. Myself and the other edgelords are all making it up.

https://www.fm104.ie/news/fm104-news/open-drug-dealing-in-temple-bar-causing-mayhem/

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/temple-bar-is-now-dublins-thug-and-drug-culture-quarter/26231380.html

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120587057#Comment_120587057

20 year old article?

I'm sure you could have found something more recent.

Again no one said Ireland didn't have crime or criminals.

tesla_newbie

Many in the legal sector earn a lot less than is commonly perceived, the average guard earns as much and more than the average small time solicitor and with a far lighter workload

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120587339#Comment_120587339

The first article is from August of last year. Today's online Irish Times has an article about Temple Bar business owners complaining of a surge in drug crime. Is that recent enough for you? Unfortunately it's behind a paywall so I can't link to it. I'd assumed that the Indo story was from the same source as the Irish Times article but didn't realise it was from 2003 so fair enough, my bad.

As to your earlier comments about how we should "Invest more in social supports. Drug rehabilitation, decriminalisation, mental health services, education, sports, activities, etc." - we've been taking the "hug a thug" approach for decades now. The evidence of how effective that's been can be seen on the Liffey boardwalk and other parts of the city centre every day as hordes of the city's drug addicts congregate to enjoy their methadone high while they intimidate and pester the decent working people and tourists trying to enjoy what should be one of the city's finest amenities. But feel free to continue denying that there's anything to be concerned about.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120587482#Comment_120587482

As to your earlier comments about how we should "Invest more in social supports. Drug rehabilitation, decriminalisation, mental health services, education, sports, activities, etc." - we've been taking the "hug a thug" approach for decades now

Nope, we have chronic underfunding at all levels of rehabilitation and mental health service, again not my opinion.

Ireland statistically is one of the safest countries in the world, probably one of the reasons we get so many visitors as you mention.

Again no one is saying Crime or Criminals doesn't exist, but I assume you have left the country at some stage right? Or maybe not. Crime exists in other countries too. Mind Blown.

The Liffey Boardwalk does not represent the entire Republic. I thought that would be obvious.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120587342#Comment_120587342

The average solicitor earns a lot more than the average garda with a much lighter workload

you have that back to front

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120587482#Comment_120587482

Have you ever seen Taxi Driver?