The implications of the Pepper Finance (vulture fund mortgages) Court Ruling.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120608205#Comment_120608205

They are required to update KYC documentation regularly.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120614353#Comment_120614353

They are, so they should have done any updates they needed before getting the GDPR SAR request.

coolshannagh28

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120598784#Comment_120598784

Excellent points....the judiciary in Ireland is anti repossession and is essentially turning distressed loans into non recourse loans at any opportunity .

strongback

There is no alternative accommodation if peoples homes are repossessed.

Its cheaper for the government to keep people in their home even when the mortgage is not being paid.

It is not like America here when you can go bankrupt quickly and the slate is wiped clean. The opportunity to bounce quickly after losing a house does not exist in Ireland.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120614446#Comment_120614446

No, the opposite. A non-recourse loan is one in which the bank can only enforce its security by taking the house; they have no recourse to the borrower personally. If the borrower defaults, the bank can take the house and sell it but, if that doesn't clear the loan, the bank has to simply write off the balance. The borrower owes them nothing. What we have in Ireland is effectively the reverse situation; it's very difficult for the bank to take the house, but they can pursue the borrower all the way to bankruptcy if they want to.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120614582#Comment_120614582

Borrowers in the US who default on their mortgage do not go bankrupt. They lose any equity in their homes, but that's it. Once they hand the house back to the bank, they no longer owe the bank any money. One of the reasons why the ready enforcement of security over a house is acceptable to borrowers is precisely because it clears their debt without them having to go bankrupt and lose their other assets.

coolshannagh28

My point being that the courts in Ireland are doing all they can to help by approving PIAs which rescue borrowers from the recourse to all assets aspect of mortgages here.

delboythedub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120585051#Comment_120585051

if you give up your home ie surrender it you may be excluded from any form of being rehomed if needed by Social welfare., that was the case a couple of years ago

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120615277#Comment_120615277

I was talking about repossessions. That's not 'giving up your home'. That's your home being legally repossessed from you for not paying your mortgage.

Beta Ray Bill

Can I ask a question to some of the Legal Eagles out there.

This couple are after getting a 2.5% rate fixed for 25 years as per ruled by the judge. I would expect Pepper Finance appeal the decision as (they allege) there is no way they can service the loan at that rate. My understanding is however they bought these distressed loans at a huge discount (50% in many cases) and were charging up to 9% interest which is substantial.

What does this mean for people on variable interest rates that are keeping up their repayments? Are we all going to see a reduced rate? The banks were bailed out by joe public and they would have borrowed the money at nearly 0% right?

Like my interest rate is a good bit higher than 2.5%

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120685324#Comment_120685324

Pepper have stated they won't be appealing the ruling.

There are no implications for other people's mortgages. This is an individual personal insolvency arrangement.

Nigzcurran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688841#Comment_120688841

I’m hopeful that a few more arrangements like this that are endorsed by the courts might force pepper to stop acting the maggot with peoples homes, they are making plenty of profit but insist on raising their rates every single chance they get

tornadoofsouls

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120583843#Comment_120583843

I have never heard such nonsense. Pepper would have been abiding by CCMA on this. Sob story at it's absolute finest.

Nigzcurran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120697864#Comment_120697864

You signed up just to post this? You probably work for pepper!

tornadoofsouls

Nope. Can just spot a bs story a mile away. I work for one of the higher level so called "vultures"

8valve

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120701196#Comment_120701196

Why would I make it up? Do you think I'm some kid, chasing likes? Go fu(k yourself. I'm a grandfather in my 50s.There's no bs in my post.

I've seen first hand what the likes of your employer has done to people.

You work for a vulture fund? You should be fu(king ashamed of yourself, making profits from other people's misery.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120706217#Comment_120706217

Like in nature, vultures clean up carcasses of dead things, so that the rotting flesh doesn't attract rats. They're an essential part of the financial system, unless we want all mortgage lenders to just stop.

There is a strict government code of conduct for handling cases like this, with penalties for violating it. So the various companies don't. In genuine hardship cases, the government is backing various solutions for people, eg mortage-to-rent.

Also, loans aren't bought and sold individually, so there's no way that a sale price could ever have been quoted. Someone has been spinning you a story.

8valve

Are the codes of practice for vulture funds identical to the codes of practice for banks, or are there any differences in regulation, etc ?

Would someone from within a vulture fund like to (anonymously , if they prefer) post up any employee manual or quote instructions they were given during induction or ongoing training by a vulture fund?

Just for transparency...

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120706422#Comment_120706422

Most people sign confidentiality clauses when they start work. That would prevent someone from posting up what you have just requested.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120706217#Comment_120706217

The mortgage system needs so called 'vulture funds'. They provide an essential service whether you like it or not. I don't see why someone should be "fu(king ashamed" for working for one. Banks repossess houses all the time, should the tellers in the bank be ashamed? Not a chance.

Lionel Fusco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708228#Comment_120708228

Absolutely 100% they are vital in our system the vast majority of repossessions in this county are investment properties where idiots who think they are Donald Trump buy investment properties cream in the rent and don't pay the mortgage they can get away with this for up to 10 years before they are repossessed. IMO it should be automatic after 6 months of non payment the property should be seized unless it is a family home in genuine hardship.

There isn't a judge in the country who will throw a family who any sort of genuine effort to engage out on the street.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120706323#Comment_120706323

I disagree strongly.

There is no "Ecosystem" in finance (If you can even call it finance). This is all gambling.

The Bank took a gamble that person X would be able to pay back a mortgage in Z number of years, and in turn allow them to make a profit.

X fell on hard times (Caused by the banks ironically) and the Bank effectively looks likely to lose the gamble. Not willing to accept they made a mistake with their risk taking, the bank sold off the gamble to someone else at a very low price (60k in the above example) but with poor odds. (Paddy Power app allows you to do the exact same thing, you can cash in a gamble early for reduced winnings if things aren't going in favor of PP)

X is not dead, they are not rotten flesh. This is a person(s). This raises all sorts of ethical questions as to what's acceptable and what's not. I'm working in IT for 20 year at this stage and I've a decent understanding on Finance and Economics. This is all just gambling, that's closed to outsiders/Joe Public.

The Banks had no business selling their non performing mortgages. I doubt very much they sold their non-performing business loans.

The knock effects of actions taken post 2008 crash by financial institutions will be felt for many many years to come. Even now, it's still not regulated the way it should be.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708844#Comment_120708844

As a matter of interest, what do you think would happen loans that Anglo had issued? They went out of business so what would happen to all of those loans?

And they mostly had business loans, many of which were non-performing. Do you think none of those were sold?

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120708984#Comment_120708984

Were they not sold off by the Irish Government?

I understand the point you're making but the Anglo loans were not ordinary loans. They were at the pinnacle of dodgey dealings of a what at the time was completely unregulated environment. (Or at least there was no enforcement/checking that regs were being adhered to)

The situation is different though. I mean knowing what we know now, you wouldn't even call Anglo a bank.

Leg End Reject

The cold, hard reality is that banks should be able to easily repossess home if the mortgage holder defaults.

It's specified in the legal documents you sign at drawdown and "Your home may be at risk if you do not keep up your payments", or words to that effect, appear on every correspondence from your lender.

A year of swift repossessions would sort out the "won't pays" from those genuinely struggling. Until lenders are allowed to follow the process the borrower agrees too vulture funds will be hoovering up loan packages with both performing and unperforming loans.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120709125#Comment_120709125

I'd agree with you in theory. Many other countries enjoy much lower interest rates on mortgages specifically because it's possible to reposes a property. That however means the banks have huge responsibility to only lend out money to people they are certain will be able to pay back. Bare in mind these are the same guys who were giving out 100% mortgages to couples in their early 20's who never saved a penny in their lives, less than 20 years ago.

On top of that, even if the repo is secured, enforcing it is nearly impossible...

https://www.thejournal.ie/roscommon-eviction-trial-farm-repossession-wild-west-6018570-Mar2023/

It's the wild west...

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120709298#Comment_120709298

Cut out government interference and have sheriffs drag people from houses if needed, but let them walk away debt free even if in negative equity.

If banks can sell loans to a vulture fund for a fraction of the outstanding balance they can sell ot at a loss on the open market without accruing any additional loss.

Once everyone accepts that mortgages do actually need to be paid, and that there are consequences for not paying, it will stop a lot of the nonsense that's currently happening.

SEPT 23 1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120706217#Comment_120706217

Imagine waking up in the morning knowing you work for these kind of people

put on the cheap suit head to the office

and begin their bullying

and that’s your job imagine doing that

do you tell their family what you do?

may the lord have mercy on their souls

Nigzcurran

The simple fact of the matter is my family and many many others want to pay our mortgages but at 8% we cannot afford to.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712289#Comment_120712289

I can't even begin to imagine trying to cope with that rate increase.

Those who have always paid, or those who got/were in the process of getting back on track after genuinely running into difficulty, only to find their mortgage sold to a vulture fund were thrown to the wolves when their original lender added their loan to the mix to make it more attractive for vulture funds.

I hope you get to remortgage soon.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713000#Comment_120713000

How would remortgaging soon help? You won't get a better rate.