DCM 2023 Mentored Novices Thread
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It's the heat. It takes an awful tole when you are not used to it. This is extremely warm for us here and we didn't have the type of summer where we built up a tolerance. Don't let this get you down or knock your confidence, it was 1 really tough run in really hot weather, put it in perspective. You did the 19 and 17 and didn't feel like this so you know you can do it and this is an anomaly.
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Well done. 😁 This should be a confidence booster. Managing that distance in this heat is a good days work. The heat is a killer. Give me a cool day in the low teens temp wise any day.
Pain in leg muscles is normal as you are using a lot more energy than a regular run of this distance. You might also get cramp as the day goes on. Take some salt and plenty of water.
These runs are what build experience and better to get that experience now rather than mile 22 of the DCM
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So it's not a pace per say, it an effort and the output is a pace. You should be running slow enough that you can easily hold a conversation, that you are not working hard and that you could basically run at that speed all day if you needed to. Then throw in the heat and you need to go slower again as it's really hot and we can't perform at the same effort and expect to get the same pace outcome.
So to the second point, you can't really say that you should run at X easy pace to run a 4.30 marathon. Your easy pace is your easy pace based on your current fitness and some recent race times. If that easy pace translates to 4.30 then super but if it doesn't it's still your easy pace and you actually need to adjust your expected marathon time based off that. Unfortunately you can't force up the easy pace and that translate to a marathon time.
Do you have any more recent race times which reflect your current fitness? If you do then we could work off those to give you some guidance.
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First thing I would say is well done for getting out and running in that heat, that's the hottest day I've felt in Ireland in a long time. I wouldn't worry about the run, it's done and move on and take the positive that you have loads more miles in the legs. You ran in conditions that are not normal for us and will not be running the DCM in those conditions. I ran Wednesday morning and felt sluggish, hated every step as I felt tired and was doubting myself. Ran the same distance yesterday and felt the complete opposite. Going to be plenty of days where you will feel great, some not so great and other days not great at all. All part of it but best solution is to keep going.
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Woah. Hold a sec. You just ran 18m in that weather and you're not absolutely thrilled with yourself? I ran yesterday around the same time and its the first time in about a year I had to stop and walk. I had zero energy as it's incredibly difficult out there. I bet you find next week when it is much cooler that it will feel at times like more of a stroll and you'll have a chuckle to yourself.
You also need to take huge comfort for being able to complete the run. Some people would have just skipped it, and many would have just given up at the 11mile mark, but remember you didn't. That mental toughness will do you enormous benefit for Dublin as you can look back and tell yourself that you ran 8 miles while feeling awful and in blistering heat, so if you managed it today, you can manage it in October.
Sure, you can put your feet up now with a wry smile on your face knowing your done with this weeks run when many of us still have it ahead of us.
Also, just on the fueling, personally, for me, 2 gels on a 18 mile run seems low, unless you had a couple of packs of Cliff Bloks. I'd suggest that you work out what and how often you plan to fuel during the marathon and replicate that in your LSRs. Its quite common for people to take a gel every 30-40 mins, but even if you don't think you need them on your long runs in training, getting used to taking them will help you get used to the routine as well as boosting your recovery.
Seriously though, take a huge amount of pride in what you done.
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Holey Moley, that took some going! Good on ya! These conditions really do zap your energy and confidence. I was feeling it a bit on my 4 and 8 milers during the week, I cant imagine what it would be like this morning. Hopefully it wont be a hot tomorrow for mine. I guess the worst part of training for this marathon is that you have to do a fair bit of it in the peak of summer (our summer that is).
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Thanks very much, that clears it up a fair bit. I'll use your advice and go by feel and the conditions and not by the watch. Sometimes I think I am running at a nice slow and the watch is saying otherwise and have to really concentrate on going slower. Saying all that, I'll probably be much, much slower due to the heat....
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I must say I'm quite surprised my post got such a reaction from people! I'm pretty conflicted with the responses to be honest.
The general advice from the running hive mind is to practise to find what works for you, control the controllable and don't do anything new on race day.
And after doing a lot of different trialling of what does and doesn't work for me, I came up with a general game plan, but basically everyone here has suggested "see what's working or has worked for you, don't do that!"
I find drinking a mouth-full every couple of KM works for me, so to do that on race day I either wear a drink on me in some capacity or carry on course bottles of water in my hand through out the run. I'd prefer to not carry anything but literally everyone who has responded has said to not bring anything with me.
I hope that I don't need music at any point during the marathon, but I don't have any experience to suggest that is the case, I've never ran a heavily spectated race before, so how I'll respond to that is not something I can control. I do know I can use music to distract my thoughts if I'm finding it tough. Am I going to regret wearing bone conductive headphones on my head for the marathon, something I have done for every KM of the training block so far, even if I'm listening to something or not, probably not. Or am I going to regret not having the option to listen to something if I need it, I don't know.
There is also a very strong reaction to possibility about carrying my phone! As mentioned above, the phone is not for me, my wife has said she would feel more comfortable being able to know where I was more accurately than an update every hour. So once it fits on me comfortably, I would be happier knowing that she isn't worried. The way its being talked about you'd swear I was talking about checking my messages and live blogging the race! I'm not going to taking my phone out of my belt at all!
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No harm in that at all, slow is good :-) It does take concentration to get into the rhythm of going easy but once you get it then it comes second nature and you don't need to look at the watch at all.
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Ah it’s different strokes too. I manage to carry my phone and all my gels, salt tablets in my belt and maybe a pocket in my shorts if I have one. Others hate the feeling of that but even if I run 5Km I wear my belt with phone, car key etc. so I’m used to wearing it. That’s the main thing. The bone conductor earphones are great as you can hear what’s going on around you. I couldn’t run on my own without earphones but never ever wear them or need them in a race. As long as they don’t bother you then go for it if that’s what makes you feel better. The atmosphere in Dublin is fab and it’s nice to chat to people the odd time too. Sometimes it’s nice if you see somebody struggling to encourage them and you find it helps you too. I’ve a friend then who couldn’t wear a belt and tapes gels to her arm. Everybody is different. The main thing is to trial everything and you do you! At the same time everybody is being well meaning with advice.
Edited to add that I meant to say also that water is every 5Km approx. I would tend to carry a bottle from station to station as I like to sip regularly so that might work for you too. The first water station can be really busy so you may like to start out with a bottle to cope with dry mouth from nerves and skip the first station then but don’t be worried about water on the route. There’s loads and often.
Post edited by Kellygirl on8 -
Well it was probably the extent of your packing list that raised a few eyebrows, rather than any single item on it.
- Water stations are provided so you don't have to carry (much) water.
- You develop strategies and resistance during training and dress properly on the day so you don't have to carry nipple guards, body glide etc on the day.
- You trust the live tracking system so you don't have to carry your phone.
- You DO carry gels/nutrition/etc because this is particularly individual and not catered for meaningfully on the course (and it's too risky to rely on others to hand these to you on the course).
Within those (and other relevant) parameters, you figure out what's essential and what works for you - it's a marathon event, an endurance event, and if you get to a point where you are trying to cover every possible base, you detract from your performance, your comfort levels, and your enjoyment of the experience. Good luck though with whatever you decide!
Ultimately, this thread is designed by experienced marathon runners of many different performance levels to advise new marathon runners on how to run a marathon. The advice can be taken or ignored. 🙂
Post edited by Murph_D on14 -
The more I read the more I'm influenced not to bring the phone. I mean, if I had an emergency I could borrow a phone I'm sure... food for thought...
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Of course you could, every spectator has a phone and anyone would help you out.
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Well there's no chance of me not talking a phone. It's a Samsung Flip and fit's nicely in my pocket. I've got into a bit of a habit taking pictures at the start etc. I haven't been on a run with anything like the support of DCM so I will soak up the atmosphere and experience. I'm also conflicted re hydration bag. I use it all the time for my long runs, it's just country roads around here so haven't got the luxury of shops. The dilemma then is that it feels strange running in races without it. I've done most with and a few without and I tend to drink too much when I haven't brought it and stop at the station's 🤣.
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As Kellygirl said, you do what's right for you. You're practising on your long runs, doing things the way they're supposed to be done.
I'd say wear your headphones, and have as a comfort back up but I will guarantee you you won't need them. The support around the course is so so amazing, the encouragement and energy you get from it can't really be described. Write your name in big letters on your bib and feed off strangers roaring your name, it's so so awesome.
It's why I couldn't even begin to consider a virtual marathon during Covid. Would be lost without that noise.
Also, I hope you don't feel a little disheartened by the responses, you're a fantastic contributor to this thread, keep it up.
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Listen, this thread, and the running community in general, has many purists. I'm bloody married to one! Look no further than @Lazare who gets his hair cut the day before a race, lest there be any tiny risk of excess baggage. He talks in miles (like wtf even is that) and his shorts are so thin, tight and aerodynamic that he's been more than once mistaken for a camp, yet energetic, sex worker looking to make rent day 🤣🤣🤣. And do you know what, @witnessmenow ? you're going to become one to some degree too. Not a camp sex worker, obvs. A purist 😉
In July, an esteemed gastroenterologist probably saved my life (hasn't stopped the shīttíng though). Yesterday, he told me to give up running. Whilst I'm forever grateful for what he did, I won't be following his advice.
Take whatever guidance works for you and leave the rest 😃
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They should have a barbers just beside bag drop.
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I am intrigued by the shorts ...........
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Witnessmenow - you raised some interesting points for discussion. Don’t be sorry you posted - you’ve made me and possibly others think about what we may or may not carry on the day. And I found it interesting to read what others did themselves.
I am possibly considering not bringing my phone now for the race.
my husband has done DCM twice and brought his phone. In both his marathons he has struggled from after the half way mark. He has an underlying condition and I do worry about the stress of the run on his body even though he assures me that he will listen to his body and take it easy ( doesn’t stop me worrying though). While the tracker is great - from personal experience when the loved one you are tracking is behind on hitting the next tracking mat - you do worry. With his phone he was able to drop a quick voice note to update on how he was, where he was and we could give him encouragement and support back.
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Felt like a real battle this morning doing my 29k!
My run buddy struggled and even threw in the towel early (although she finished strongly the 30 minutes between making the call and getting collected)
3 and half hours in total including water stops etc, I did a few very slow km when my buddy needed a walk, I definitely think there is a point where the easier you run the harder it gets again. I find my legs are exhausted after runs that go like this, I'm sure the weather doesn't help either.
But another one ticked off! Best of luck to anyone else who still needs to do theirs
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Yep it was a tough one. I set the alarm for 5am when I saw last night how warm it would get. I can't do heat and sun.
Didn't get a great night's sleep as youngest kiddo is sick and coughed and squirmed all night, bless her. Also, when I got up I noticed I had a mild sore throat, I guess it's in the post for me. This is the most annoying thing about back to school. Virus' galore!
I got down to the canal and got going just shy of 6am. If I'm being totally honest I was a little anxious as it was still dark (visible but dark - only the stars for light - and I am a scaredy cat). Thankfully the night faded quickly, 1km in and all was good. I thought I wouldn't pass a soul at that time, but I passed a guy and his dog in the first km, someone my husband runs by every single morn, so a total creature of habit. Didn't see anyone or any cars for ages thereafter. Felt very warm from the off, had to have been circa 18 degrees at 6am. 11 degrees is my sweet spot. The sun rose at about 8am and thankfully, with two hours still to go, there was no direct sunshine until my final 5km or thereabouts, but my god it was relentless then.
Shortly after my first gel 30 mins in (Kinetica brand - non caffeine - last weeks had caffeine) I found I needed loo urgently. I like them, they're not too bad, but gonna drop them now as they seem to 'bring things on'. Overall, I took 2 Kinetica cola and 2 Maurten. Maurten seem to make me feel fuller for longer, which I like, and also don't seem to trigger anything. They're spendy, but I'm going to solely use them from here on in. I'm still really stressed about toileting on marathon day if I'm honest, but its out of my hands, I can only do so much in terms of mitigation, glad Maurten seem to be working for me though.
I took 2 x 250ml soft water bottles again with zero tab mix, and wore the Decathlon belt this time. You can fit a ton in the belt but it gets bulky. I have to say, I hate carrying water, absolutely hate it. Feels like two hot water bottles jiggling on your hips, can't stand it. Really considering not carrying water now on the day. Just gels, tabs and tissues.
At the half way point I was back at the van and did a couple minutes pitstop given the weather situation. I refilled both water bottles woth zero tab mix, changed my singlet (soaked with sweat), applied more sun screen, grabbed my sunglasses and more tissues, and was on my way for the second leg. I know this isn't an option on the day - it was because of the heat today and getting through it as best as I could.
Another thing I didn't do, for the first time ever on a solo run, was listen to music. I don't know if I mentioned on last week's lsr post, but my watch died just at the end of the cool down walk. I had started out on a full charge. This panicked me a bit, imagine that happening during the marathon! Husb said it was likely the Bluetooth and music draining the battery. Anyway, I decided I wouldn't listen to much music or pods because of this, but I ended up just not bothering to stick the headphones in at all. Not one single time. And it was grand. The only downside was when I got into a negative thinking pattern (which happens early on for me, when I think of the slog ahead of me - I kept thinking of consultant telling me to quit running - his face kept appearing in my mind like a recurring negative thought bubble 😆) - music can distract from that, but I guess it's helpful to have other strategies for flicking to positive thinking, like positive self talk (which I did a lot of!). It was never my intention to listen to music on race day anyway but it's good to know I can do a 4 hour solo run without headphones. I'm glad I know that about myself now.
I amended my route slightly so I'd end up in Celbridge Castletown for their Parkrun, however I got there 16 mins early and just hadn't the mental bandwidth at that point to try and make up the time running about until the gun went off, so I abandoned that idea. Also my social battery was non existent at this point (not in the humour of other humans 😆) so I waved hello at the organisers and jogged on. When I left Castletown with about 7. 5km to go the sun started peeping out of the hazy clouds. Soon enough it was full glare. I just had to pick off the kms one by one and tell myself how great I was. I'm sure I looked wrecked. Back to the van for stretching and 750ml of protein milk. 5 min drive home. No one home - bliss - got changed abd got into bed for a nap! 😁
Good luck to everyone doing their lsr this weekend. Now it's bbq time!!!
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I had the same horrible issues from my lsr Saturday so I'm happy to read this as I was feeling exactly the same, pure pain all evening/night in my legs, couldn't have felt lower since the plan started and this was my longest run ever at 26k, but from reading all the replies I feel very positive again, and it is a positive getting through the plan in that heat.
Well done everyone who got through the weekend lsr's and thanks for all the help here.
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It’s great to hear it might be normal to feel rough with the heat!! I’ve always favoured a cold misty day anyway. All we need now is a good stormy weekend and we’ll have covered worst case conditions 😃.
Has anyone tried the salt chew tablets? And if so do they have any positive effects? Thinking of giving them a go.
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WEEK 12
Well done on completing week 11 everyone, we can see how tough everyone found it in the heat. Don't be disheartened, it effects us all, your training is still going to plan even if you found it really difficult in the heat, it's very normal to experience that and it's not a sign that you are going backwards or anything of the sort, take the confidence from getting through it and being ready for week 12.
This was also a landmark week for many of you with the first 20 mile run - you have come such a long way already - really well done! Only four more (tough) weeks of training before we are into the taper. Keep that consistency going and it will pay dividends come DCM.
It's to be expected to have some level of muscle soreness at this stage as the body is pushed further than before. Plenty stretching and foam rolling will help, but if issues persist then get yourself to a physio.
The plans for the week are as follows:
Plan|Monday|Tuesday|Wednesday|Thursday|Friday|Saturday|Sunday
HHN1|rest|4m easy|8m easy|5m easy|rest|12m LSR|rest
Boards|rest, cross or 3m rec|6m easy|1m w/u,9m pace,1m c/d|3m rec |rest, cross or 3m rec|16m LSR|3m rec
This is a step back week in terms of the LSR mileage this week, this is to allow the body repair and take in those training benefits. We're also planning for the DCM HM which is in week 13 so this allows a little bit of freshness to creep back into the legs for that race (for those doing it).
On the HH plan we pair back the LSR this week and a slight dip in overall weekly mileage. For the Boards crew we are also dropping the length of the LSR but overall the mileage is consistent with week 11 with the mid week runs upping the distances slightly. The pmp pace session is back this week as well, so again, try and dial into the effort, it's not easy, it's a couple of gears above it. Don't push the pace.
We've seen a lot of reports already, suffering in the heat but for those that haven't commented already, how was week 11 for you?
- Did you complete all the runs on your plan - if not, then why not?
- Did you complete all the runs at an appropriate pace?
Best of luck everyone with the week ahead. You are all doing great and it's such an achievement to get to this point. We only have these few hard weeks to go and we'll be there. Also, do keep posting up about what you are thinking for race day. While everyone may not agree it does allow everyone to review and take in lots of opinions on what to bring and how to manage race day, your thoughts and questions benefit everybody so don't be shy in posting your ideas.
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Plan|Monday|Tuesday|Wednesday|Thursday|Friday|Saturday|Sunday
Plan: Didnt have much of plan as I was doing a HM on Sunday.
3km easy/ 10.4km easy / 4km Easy/ 3.6Km Treshold/ 4km easy/ 1km easy/ HM all out
I think I ran everything ok on the week if it was a DCM week I wouldnt have done the Treshold as well as a Gym Workout on Thursday it took me until Sunday Morning to ffeel recovered from that.
For the Charleville HM it went really well I had a lucozade Sport before and 4 Gels during and they gave me alot of energy I could have done with one more Gel I think as I was flaggin at the end. It wasnt sunny but it was warm and very humid/foggy.
I ran with the 120min pacers for the first 5k but broke away as the water station was approaching as there was a massive bunch of us and I was worried of tripping or missing the water. I enjoyed the group but it was too cogested and people were clipping my heals so decided ro run slightly ahead on them for the rest of the race meaning I may have run a little fast at times.
I took gels at 20min 45mins 105 mins and 125mins I felst they kept the power going to my legs but not sure if its just placebo. I ended up finishing in 1:59:45 by clock time and 1:58:59 on the chip time. Strava gave me a 1:56:11 PB with a avg HR of 151bpm and avg pace of 5:33.
I was very happy with the race but daunted thinking of keeping going at that pace for the full marathon I am now committed to trying to go under 4:30 I dont think under 4 is achieveble for me at the moment.
I got a bruise on the nail of my Big Toe not sure how that happened hoping it wont result in loosing the toe nail or having to take time of running.
From my HM I think I learned that:
- 4:30 is my goal time.
- I will need ten gels (is this a mad amount)
- Outfit is sorted as in short and vest.
- My feet are my biggest concern for injury need to look into some socks.
Back on it now must see where I reorder the HHN1 plan as its a little disorganised as I did the HM in a different week.
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Well done on the HM. I was confident you could do it at 5.30 pace and that seems to have been just about where you landed. I also think you have taken a key learning out of it for your marathon, in terms of your goal time, which is one of the main reasons we do these tune up races. They do make it very real about what it would take to run a certain time and whether your current fitness allows for that. With an adjusted time based on your current fitness you will have a much more enjoyable and rewarding day at DCM.
I wouldn't worry about the black toe. It's almost a runners right of passage! I currently have 3 of them, it shouldn't stop you running but you can expect to loose the nail at some point. It takes an age for them to work out so you needn't worry about it for race day. If you were concerned then putting a plaster over it should do the trick.
Certainly 10 would seem on the high side. I'm every 30 to 35 minutes so for me that works out at about 6. I would have though 8 would be the max you would need. I would also think you'd have a hard time consuming 10 gels. Most people get really sick of them after 4 or 5 and are forcing the last couple down. Perhaps you could look at and practice with some gels and some different food sources just to mix it up a little
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Week 11
Planned: 8K | 13K | 8K | Rest | 13k | 30k |Cross
Actual: 8K | 13K | 8K | Rest | 13k | 30k | 60 min walk (only 4k as brought the kids for the first 2k)
71k for the week, the biggest week on my plan. Paces were pretty good.
Despite the long distances this week, running was fine other than Saturday which was tough enough and my legs were tired, but they are fine again now two days later.
Similar to the boards HH plan, It's a step back week for me this week, with only a half for the LSR ("only a half"). But I'm actually looking forward to the 20 mile run in two weeks. It's the final unknown left in my training, every other session is one I have done already. I feel like once thats done, It really next step marathon (even though there are still a good few weeks left)
Mixed week in terms of everything other than running, but there will be weeks like that I guess!
Hope everyone had a good week!
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Disaster of a week in terms of getting the planned runs done. I knew it was going to be tough to fit everything in and in the end I missed out on 2 planned runs - the 8 miler and the 4 miler + strides. I got the 20 miles in at least which is something (it was horrendous, of course, but it's done). Total of 30 miles (50Km), 2 tennis and 1 gym. This week is going to be similar so I'll need all the stars to align to make it work.
I've decided the 3:59:59 target is off the table. It's not realistic and it would be madness to attempt it. I think I picked that time with notions of what I could have done a few years ago, not based on current fitness or ability (or free time!). So I'll see how the HM goes and then go for somewhere between 4:10 and 4:30 probably.
Enjoyed reading about everyone else's week and seeing the runs on Strava.
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Club Plan |Track|rest|Track|rest|rest|rest
Actual |Track|rest|Track|rest|5km|12.5km
This week in the club plan was to be a step back week after the 20 mile last weekend. I just couldn't get my head around taking a weekend of NOT running this far into the marathon plan - I honestly felt like I would crack up! So I decided I would do some running - and it was easy running, relaxed, not chasing a distance or pace - just running for the enjoyment of it, not because I have to with the marathon training. As reckless as it may seem, 2.5 years ago I felt the very opposite about running, I would make myself go out for a run, hate every step, stop and walk home in tears. So I ran my local parkrun and Sun I ran with a few of the running group enjoying the feeling of no pressure about the marathon for one weekend. I did struggle with the heat on Sun morn and was glad to be doing a shorter long run.
Total run for the week 32.25km plus 1 workout and approx 14km walking.
I enjoyed the conversations here during the week about what to bring or not bring on race day, about running in the heat. Well done to everyone on their runs this week, those who raced.
It's a little scary that the marathon is next month and as MisterJinx said there's 4 weeks left of (tough) training before the taper - I had a brief moment similar to pre exam nerves - like the start of study leave where you realise that even though you think you've been working away all year, you have to put the head down now and get some serious work done between here and the exams! I used to get a month or 2 study leave when I was a trainee and it was a tough slog to keep the head in the game, to focus and not panic.
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