Using land as collateral

HazeDoll

Quick question.

If a farmer was using land as collateral in order to get a loan would a solicitor always be involved?

I'm not going to go into detail but a neighbour is trying to pull a fast one on me and he's making dubious claims about deals that were done in the distant past.

roosterman71

Solicitor wouldn't have to be involved but it would have to be written somewhere. Not sure if the folio on landdirect.ie would have the information or not. Cost ya €5 to find out.

HazeDoll

Thanks Roosterman! I would have thought a solicitor would usually be involved in that sort of thing but I know very little about it.

Another quick question, not directly connected to the previous one but part of the same sorry tale:

Is there a particular time of year when applications for farm payments are made?

Yup, he's been claiming payments on land he doesn't own and spinning a web of bullshit to try to convince me he has done nothing wrong.

roosterman71

Others more knowledgeable will be up to date with application dates. I think BISS should be in around now.

Nothing wrong with them claiming payments on land that they don't own. Only becomes an issue if the owner of the land tries it too. From a department perspective the farmer must be putting in this piece of land on his application. The department would just assume it's rented or there's some agreement made.

HazeDoll

Thanks again. This is very helpful stuff.

So if a farmer had been clearly told by the owner to keep animals off a piece of land and no agreement had ever been made it would definitely be an issue, right? There's no confusion at all between us about who owns the piece of land in question.

J.O. Farmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120650626#Comment_120650626

Don't know what's going on here but yes a farmer should have use of the land though not necessarily own it.

Generally not a problem as most farmers only use land they own or have access to via whatever arrangement with the owner.

Occasionally you'd hear of chancers claiming on land they thought nobody else was but that would probably technically be fraud. Putting cattle on the land is more extreme. Cattle are traceable.

It sounds like you need professional legal advice here.

J.O. Farmer

The banks normally have a solicitor act for them. They need to ensure the collateral is secure.

HazeDoll

I have a professional on the job! I'm just trying to make sure I have some sort of understanding of things so I don't waste the solicitor's time by making them explain irrelevant stuff to me!

Lime Tree Farm

"Is there a particular time of year when applications for farm payments are made?"

The deadline for this year's BISS, ECO & CRISS application is midnight 29 May 2023

HazeDoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120650837#Comment_120650837

Well that is VERY interesting.

green daries

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120650944#Comment_120650944

Make sure you get someone anyone or obviously yourself to claim a single payment of sone description on the land you own then he will have to withdraw his claim for single payment on it

green daries

Also your headline on this thread nés a better explanation for people to advise and understand what they are commenting on

wrangler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120650746#Comment_120650746

Cheapest way of finding if someone is claiming payment on your land is submit a BISS application on it yourself

HazeDoll

Thanks everybody for the input. It's all very helpful.

I already know for certain that he has been claiming payments on my land. I'm not a farmer and I don't have a herd number so the dept of ag won't deal with me at all. Won't even tell me if they're going to look into it. Told me to mind my own business, pretty much. I had the plot number he has been using and I had copies of the map that shows my own folio. They told me they're too busy to look at them.

My worry is that he'll use all this to build a case for adverse possession in the future.

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651405#Comment_120651405

Department won't get involved unless there's multiple claims on the one parcel.

My worry is that he'll use all this to build a case for adverse possession in the future.

This is a valid concern. Best get professional advice and keep us informed

893bet

Adverse possession is very difficult proof and you need to do any ownership action every X (I think it’s 12 years?) years to retain ownership.

That action can be a solicitor letter to this person. It could be cutting the hedges via a contractor (get a receipt documenting the gwo location almost as proof).

My point is gaining adverse possession is almost inpossible when the real own is there and alive.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651405#Comment_120651405

What he is doing claiming is relatively harmless. But still not right.

Has he cattle on the land against your wishes?

Water John

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651534#Comment_120651534

how do you mean 'relatively harmless'. would you like to have someone take over a room in your house?

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651837#Comment_120651837

Well that’s different. As that would be depriving me of the use of the room in my house.

Understanding from OP is this related to payments. And the OP is not claiming payments so is not deprived of them.

Suspect there is a lot to the story. Going to hazard a guess they inherited the land from an elderly parent and this “neighbour” has been helping said parent for a few years. Also going to guess they live at least a county or 2 away from the land.

Water John

What somebody does with their patch of ground is their business.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651891#Comment_120651891

Jesus this place is tough work. I am not arguing that. Read my post and try understand it.

If all he has done is take some payments on it (I suspect he has done more hence I asked the question re cattle etc) then the OP hasn’t missed out on anything and it’s a victimless crime (ie harmless). The CAP budget is the only victim perse.

Read my post and understand the context I posted it in.

But I am sure there is a lot more to the story. Like why the OP is not farming it or have it leased out to a farmer etc. Assumign there is history that the OP inherited so to speak.

HazeDoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651869#Comment_120651869

You're way off. I bought the house and the land myself. I live very close to the fields in question. He has no reasonable claim whatsoever to the land, he just wants it.

HazeDoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652087#Comment_120652087

I'm not farming it because I don't need to farm it. I'm not leasing it to a farmer for the same reason. I have a long-term project underway that doesn't involve any construction or development of the land.

As has been pointed out above, what I do with it is my own business as long as I don't do any environmental damage or break any laws.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652182#Comment_120652182

I stand corrected so. What kinda project are you doing?

How many acres?

Has he cattle in it aswell?

Whats he claiming as his defence?

Was he renting it prior to you buying it hense is doing the bull macabe on it?

Lime Tree Farm

Even if he never had an animal on it - it enhances his stocking density for nitrates, plus he may be getting the anc, and increased space for nature.

HazeDoll

He's a chancer and a bully.

It's nice that some of you are so quick to come up with excuses for his behaviour though. Good to know he has people on his side. Surely he must have some valid prior claim to the land, right? Surely he knows how to make use of the land more effectively than its silly owner who isn't even a farmer, right?

Nope. He's just a rotten old sod who smells of cabbage, cowdung and dead mice and believes he can intimidate me letting him do whatever he wants.

I'm not going to go into any more detail here. My initial question about employing a solicitor when using land as collateral for a loan has been answered and my question about payments was also answered. This was very helpful and I'm grateful to everybody who took the time to answer. It can be very hard for non-farmers to make sense of farming-related matters and you really helped me out.

Mods, you can close this thread if you think that's appropriate.

Lime Tree Farm

"It's nice that some of you are so quick to come up with excuses for his behaviour though. Good to know he has people on his side. Surely he must have some valid prior claim to the land, right? Surely he knows how to make use of the land more effectively than its silly owner who isn't even a farmer, right?"

That's a very off-putting statement in response to postrrs who tried to be of assistance to you.

amacca

Yeah in fairness it was just speculation due to lack of information rather than excuses for behaviour...and the speculation was imo a fairly common scenario or scenarios when that kind of shite happens..

Most farmers wouldn't view land grabbers/squatter types too positively in my experience.

Lad locally somehow managed to take over what was a community owned plot of bog for himself eons ago...there's still bad blood in the area about it.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652334#Comment_120652334

Yeah. Close or up and let the OP fool around with their solicitor.

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652277#Comment_120652277

Right. I'm goinig to tackle you here. You came on looking for advice without giving all details which left the thread open to speculation. A lot of help was given I feel. You were told different scenarios re. the department, payments, etc. And then when some people speculate as to the history you go off on a rant and attack the posters here, and the man in question.

I'd suggest you don't go to the farmer with that attitude. Sounds like you recently bought it and don't know the history. Find that out and go from there. Going in gung ho telling Mr. Smelly Chancer Farmer Mice Lover that he's a bully and whatnot isn't going to aid your cause. Ye presumably live close to each other. Settle it amicably if possible, and fairly. The farmer, if doing what you say, might need a bit of time to sort some things out on their end.

Best of luck, and reign your offputting attitude in

K.G.

Right lads.take a step back and think a bit before people post.we all have had issues crop in our setups that often worry us alot and often when you go about it the issue gets sorted easy enough.i think the best advice is to find out all the facts and consult professionals.and finally everyone,discuss the issue not the poster