Immigration to Ireland - policies, challenges, and solutions *Read OP before posting*

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971356#Comment_120971356

I'll tell you, I have yet to hear a solitary single thing to detract from the obvious truth that we are overpopulated.

And you know what that probably means? That's it really is the truth, and its just too bitter a pill for some to swallow.

It is what it is. And that's probably where the annoyance comes in for you.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971297#Comment_120971297

Nope. Let me put it this way; the number of doctors is decreasing and it's increasingly difficult to get an appointment.

So you reduce block immigration which reduces the population, which makes things better.

But the amount of doctors keeps decreasing and eventually you're back at square one.

You're confusing the symptom with the cause.

Not enough houses because the govt completely f*cked up housing policy? Maybe fix the housing policy before blaming immigration.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971373#Comment_120971373

Nah man, you're reading it wrong.

There are the cast iron, direct causes and effects of overpopulation.

Not nearly enough housing? Continue to allow more people into that situation? That's direct overpopulation effect.

What you are referring to are the indirect effects of overpopulation.

A nurse no longer able to afford housing (due to overpopulation and its demand pressure), who is also worked into the ground (conditions due to overpopulation and stretched capacity), looks elsewhere and leaves to escape it.

Less nurses=less care=longer waiting

Etc.

It's all tied together and is readily explainable.

This whole back and forth between people here is the clearest case of "cart before horse" I've seen in terms of argument

Ahwell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971364#Comment_120971364

You can think that if you wish, I really don't care.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971391#Comment_120971391

Well thanks for letting me know that my reply annoyed you and simultaneously you don't care about.

It just makes my argument, rock solid as it is already, all the more convincing. Nobody can say boo against it.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971385#Comment_120971385

Not at all. You're blaming a symptom instead of the cause.

If you gave free tickets to a concert in Croke Park and filled the place, but there was only 1 toilet, which caused distress to a large amount of people, is the problem that there are too many people or not enough toilets?

Apply that analogy for housing.

We have thousands of well paid jobs up for grabs and fantastic standard of living up so it's no wonder we have large immigration, which is actively encouraged by the government.

Ireland is a victim of its success and there are plenty of better ways to ease the pressures on the system without resorting to banning migrants, which seeing as we have open border with Europe, is pretty much impossible anyways.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971401#Comment_120971401

Sure jaysus man, of course there shouldn't be a stadium with one toilet.

Do you know what you don't do in that case? Let everyone in and pretend it's hunky dory. "Sure next year we'll build another toilet, and let in another 10k people".

The stadium is above capacity, it is not suitable for the amount of people. So yes, overcapacity=overpopulated.

As for "fantastic standard of living", that really depends on if you aren't on the receiving end of the housing crisis, student accommodation crisis, lack of nurses, guards, teachers, police, education places, creche costs, childminding places, blooming homelessness....all those pesky things. Or if its still better than where you came from.

You know, symptoms of the problem of overpopulation. People pressure.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971425#Comment_120971425

Sure, and next year you can't get an artist to play Croke park because there's not enough people in attendance.

So maybe you should have fixed the cause of not enough toilets instead of the symptom.

Even with these problems we have a fantastic standard of living compared to the vast majority of other countries in the world. We top polls time and again.

I'm not going to bother anymore. If blaming immigrants for every problem makes you happy then go for it.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971446#Comment_120971446

Listen man, if you somehow believe that you invite a bloke to stand in a field and THEN you begin building a home for him, and THEN you build a school for him, and THEN you get a nurse and then a policeman and then this and then that, all after the fact, that's on you.

But it is pure arsebackwards logic.

The problem from inception is that you invited someone to stand bare arsed in a field without the necessities.

And when you're halfway through building one home, you look over and now there's 5 other dudes into the bargain.

You're never going to catch up to the problem because you're not dealing with the actual problem.

A definition of living beyond capacity.

AKA overpopulation.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971453#Comment_120971453

If you invite someone to your house for dinner, but have no food, is it his fault or yours? Would you run down to the shop or tell him to go home?

That's the issue. The government has failed time and again to provide for all people in Ireland, and reducing the population isn't going to make the government better at their job. If anything, the services that we need, construction and healthcare workers are disproportionately coming from immigrants.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971459#Comment_120971459

It's the houses fault for inviting him. Farcical. How dumb would you have to be to invite someone to a meal and have no food? No, I wouldn't run down to shop, especially when I know that my dumbass housemate is going to invite even more people by the time I get back.

Regardless of the fault, and I do agree it's the government's fault, there's still a bunch of blokes standing around your house hungry.

So what am I going to do? Run up and down to a shop like a skivvy, arriving back every time to find there still isn't enough food and ever more people?

No thanks. You'd rightly say sorry, but this is not my responsibility, and you can't hang around. If you have a problem you can deal with it from your own house. Blame my dickhead housemate. Elsewhere. Goodnight and good luck.

And that's the extant problem. Too many people. Insufficient match between capacity and population. An overpopulation.

But I disagree, of course, that reducing the population would have no effect.

If the government are so haplessly useless, the very least you can expect is that they won't destroy housing that's already in existence.

So yes, with a current non national population equal to approximately 7 limerick cities, I'll take the freeing up of that capacity versus the fever dreams that they'll ever build an additional 7 cities.

As for the comment that it's the additional people who have arrived here that are disproportionately carrying the country, it literally makes no sense. There are less homes than ever, worse healthcare in many respects. Numbers and experience just simply do not tally. The more there are, the worse it is, that's the observable situation.

And precisely what is expected from overpopulation.

Fox Tail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120969994#Comment_120969994

Aye. But it was yourself that mentioned the disabled.

There is an impact to working people from the govts action regarding refugees. We have to be honest about that.

There arent enough homes to go round and I think we would all agree on that point.

The more homes the govt pays for, whether its social housing for the irish residents in private developments or same for refugees, the more homes are not available to people that have the capacity to pay for the homes themselves, but dont get the opportunity.

Everyone deserves a home, but the working middle class are bottom of the list.

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120971459#Comment_120971459

Roderick invited the world for dinner, translating it into various languages and his hope that everyone would have their keys after 4 months.

Over half of the HAP houses in Longford currently lived in by non Irish. There is no housing crisis, there is a hand out houses to the world and it's mother crisis. Paddies kids are emigrating in their droves due to housing while our builders are flat out building modular homes for those here a wet week.

Irish builders are flat out building for immigrants, so let's import builders to build for us- we truly have lost the plot!

https://gript.ie/53-of-hap-recipients-in-longford-are-non-irish-figures-show/#:~:text=In%20addition%2C%20the%20data%20shows,as%20at%2014th%20March%202023.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972033#Comment_120972033

And is the solution to limit immigration or reform the HAP system? You can't blame people for taking advantage of a broken system.

Like the other poster you're not solving the actual problem.

Wanderer78

id love to know how those that propose to significantly reduce immigration numbers, propose to maintain some element of social and economic functioning, particularly in an aging population?

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120970524#Comment_120970524

If someone commits a crime while their claim is being processed it should be immediately be cancelled and put him/her on the next plane out of here.

And claims should be decided within weeks of someone arriving here.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972240#Comment_120972240

Agreed

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972168#Comment_120972168

Ireland has the youngest population in the EU. 22% under 15 years old and a median age of 38.

Every region across the world is experiencing population aging, with the exception of sub-Saharan Africa.

The solution is of course making it easier for Irish people to have their desired family sizes. As it is, we aren’t that far off replacement level fertility. With the right set of family-friendly policies, this country could easily return to the 2.05 threshold.

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972103#Comment_120972103

AFAIK we have to house and give welfare to any EU citizen for 6 months, after that we can return to sender. Ireland chooses not to after 6 months and keeps supporting them.

If they can't support themselves in a time of full employment they arent going to. The link I posted above has 53% of hap recipients in Longford foreign. If 17% in last census of the population is foreigners they ain't paying anyone's pension n time to enact 6 month rule.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972437#Comment_120972437

...most advanced economies, including ireland, are starting to experience aging populations, this presents serious challenges in maintaining functioning societies and economies into the future.

theres very little stopping people from having as many kids as they want, very little policy wise, but the pressures of modern society poses a serious problem, how do people actually afford this, how do people afford to maintain their most critical of needs, including their property needs? how do you propose to maintain the critical expansion of needs required for a growing population, from educational needs, foods needs, health care needs, child care needs, infrastructure needs etc etc, if we significantly increase birth rates, how do you propose to pay for this?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972437#Comment_120972437

The figures you mention include those of immigrants and Irish born children of non nationals (ironically, one of the reasons we have such a young population is because of the influx of people over the last 20 years).

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972519#Comment_120972519

Yes, they include them, but the fertility rate of native Irish people is on par with that of immigrants to this country. In any given year, 80% of births are to Irish and UK mothers, who are overwhelmingly northern Irish.

Even with zero immigration throughout the last 20 years, the Irish population pyramid would be broadly similar to today, albeit with a smaller total population.

The only ironic aspect here, is you wading in two feet first as usual ‘Strazdas’ whilst understanding virtually nothing about demographics. Par for the course at this stage though..

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972550#Comment_120972550

...you need to be fully aware of what you re actually proposing, i.e. removing many from the workforce, in order to make the babies, the more they have, the longer theyre removed from the workforce, and then of course the significant increase in welfare costs required to maintain this increase in care needs, again, also baring in mind, in modern advanced economies, humans generally dont enter the workforce later in life, until into their twenties etc, how do you propose to pay for all of this?

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972484#Comment_120972484

I’m not sure you understood my post. Ireland still has about two or three decades to offset the potential impact of the demographic time bomb. In fact, our fertility rate is ~1.75 - 1.8, just below the 2.05 threshold that is commonly accepted as the replacement level in advanced economies.

Just so we’re clear, you believe the solution to an aging population is ramping up immigration rather than encouraging indigenous fertility? You do realise that immigrants will age too, right?

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972570#Comment_120972570

That’s not what I’m proposing at all. You’re quite confused.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972588#Comment_120972588

okay, we re generally more fertile, yippee!

and again, why are people choosing to have less kids? by any chance has it got anything to do with the rapid cost of living, and if so, how do you propose to deal with this, so that people can have more kids?

once again, if we encourage people to remove themselves from the workforce, in order to have more kids, how do you propose to pay for all of this?

...and again, most humans are not truly ready for the workforce until their twenties, how do you propose to pay to run the economy during this time?

yes people age, but many immigrants are already adults, and are prepared to work as soon as they enter a country, many others are also prepared to re-enter education and training, in order to work! i.e. no need for childcare for these individuals, as theyre already adults, and ready to work!

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972470#Comment_120972470

So again, is the solution to stop people immigrating, or to enforce laws and make people return home of they can't support themselves after 6 months?

Bear in mind there are many working who are also on HAP.

I've not heard of this 6 month rule BTW..

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972591#Comment_120972591

so, what are you proposing?

growleaves

'If you invite someone to your house for dinner, but have no food, is it his fault or yours?'

So maybe stop doing that?

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120972615#Comment_120972615

Again, you don’t understand. The demographic crisis upon which you appear to be fixated, simply doesn’t exist in this county. South Korea, Japan, and Italy for sure, Ireland no. That’s the starting point for this discussion.

We’re almost at replacement level fertility and have the healthiest population pyramid in the EU. Nobody but you is suggesting removing anybody from the workforce. It’s about making it as easy as possible for families to have say that third child, rather than stopping at two. This could be achieved by making high quality, affordable childcare accessible to families who need it.

You have quite a peculiar view of immigrants, perceiving them as self-contained economic units with zero reliance on state services. Do immigrants not have partners, form families, have children? In fact, the average immigrant in their 30s has precisely the same needs as their Irish counterpart. Not sure where you’re going with running the economy whilst children are being raised. Did you miss the part where I clarified the median age in this country?