Immigration to Ireland - policies, challenges, and solutions *Read OP before posting*

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121041751#Comment_121041751

But many female and juvenile refugees are in refugee camps. People seem to have this idea that the make-up of refugees arriving in European countries is somehow indicative of the entire refugee population globally. Germany is the only country in the "West" to feature in the top 5 countries hosting refugees — the others are Turkey, Iran, Colombia and Pakistan. These countries either border or are in close proximity to countries with major conflicts or humanitarian crises. The refugee camps in Africa are stacked with women and children who have either fled internally within countries (such as those who have fled the violent regions of Nigeria to the camps elsewhere in the country) or have fled to the nearest bordering country where refugees are hosted.

The simple reality is that a refugee's journey to Europe is a wholly unpredictable one which from both a practicality and safety perspective is not an easy one to make with a wife and children in tow, and certainly not one that many women would feel secure making alone or with kids. The journey is simply easier and safer for men to make alone, whether they have no dependants themselves or are trying to set roots down somewhere where their wife / children can eventually follow.

It's all well and good tossing around this "anyone with a functioning brain" stuff, but it doesn't take much use of a functioning brain to see reasons for how the demographic of refugees arriving in Europe is influenced.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121039065#Comment_121039065

Yes, children can understand childish things.

the analogy suggests that the country doesn't have room for more people, it's clearly obvious we have plenty of room.

the same poster doesn't seem to know if it's capacity, or our 'sudden' highest population ever 🙄 or the rapid increase in population (which isn't as rapid as the rise 20 years ago)

Children don't make good analogies

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121041751#Comment_121041751

You have had no dealings whatsoever with anyone fleeing war, that is obvious. No dealings whatsoever with people who have lived through wars and conflicts. You don't know the first thing about what people have to do to survive.

As has been pointed out here, many many times, the men undertake the dangerous journeys first, then get the wives and children out.

Serbian forces in the former Yugoslavia wars, murdered any males between the ages of 12-75 ish, women and children were rarely murdered.

Just because there is conflict in a country, it does not mean that everyone is involved. I mean, Jesus we had conflict on this island for decades, no one believed everybody was involved.

Ahwell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121040983#Comment_121040983

There is a bit of confusion here and it was my fault. I thought he was talking about the present day, bur he was actually referring to the 1980s and 1990s.

At the end of that period the number of Irish born people living aboard was actually estimated to be 1 million. It was compiled from a number of national censuses.

https://www.globalirish.ie/issues/how-many-irish-people-live-abroad-an-ean-factsheet/#:~:text=There%20are%20an%20estimated%20one,slowed%20and%20return%20migration%20increased.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121041971#Comment_121041971

"it's clearly obvious we have plenty of room."

Really?

Care to back that assertion up in any way whatsoever?

Ahwell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121041025#Comment_121041025

That article is from Mon 21 Feb 2011.

75% of public housing allocations in 2019 went to Irish nationals, 18% to EEA nationals and 6% to non-EEA nationals.

https://ec.europa.eu/migrant-integration/news/misconceptions-about-housing-migrants-and-refugees-ireland-causes-hostility_en

hymenelectra

Talking to a friend just earlier who's trying to get childcare. They were speaking with multiple childcare providers and there are just no places. No state, no private, no nothing.

One of the providers pulled no punches in describing precisely the problem. It's so outrageous that it would be dismissed as a fictional story. But you can guess what the overall reason is without providing the anecdote.

Needless to say, why there is insufficient childcare (obvious) is not so important as compared to the simple fact that there is insufficient childcare.

Just like the demonstrable insufficiency of everything else against the extra population that continues gathering pace.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042517#Comment_121042517

Here's more up to date information

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/862a4-summary-of-social-housing-assessments-2022-key-findings/

There's a lot to unpack there, but a couple of observations.

Firstly, "citizen" is shorthand for irish passport holder. That's all it means. It's not very informative.

Secondly, the very concept of Irish social housing being given to anyone else is outrageously stupid.

To expand on that, the very idea that a German, evidently unable to afford housing here, and then given a social housing unit, is beyond reason.

To expand further, that any non-eu person is evidently unable to afford to live here, and then given a social housing unit, is further still beyond reason.

Thirdly, this is all against the backdrop of near-monthly increasing records of homeless people in ireland. And from the horses mouth of varadkar, "250,000 homes behind"

There's a lot more to say on the individual numbers, such as under-representation/over-representation.

Again, even though this information is specifically on social housing, its just another notch in the proof of overpopulation at large.

To put it more succinctly, what is it, exactly, that leads the government to believe it can afford to give away over 20% of social housing stock, given the state of the nation?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042942#Comment_121042942

A housing crisis does not mean that the country is overpopulated - it simply means there is a shortage of available accommodation.

You keep making a direct correlation between the housing crisis and the supposed need for the country to depopulate - as if housing is literally the only issue facing the country and the economy and the only factor that should be taken into account when planning our future as a nation for the next 30 years. People, families, jobs, education, the successful economy etc are all irrelevant to you.....all you want to talk about is housing.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043063#Comment_121043063

I've mentioned housing a lot, yes.

I've also pointed out the precise same insufficiency in healthcare, prisons, childcare, education and more.

ALL tied to overpopulation.

We don't have 20 different, suspiciously similarly described problems. We have one problem and 20 different symptoms.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043092#Comment_121043092

All of the things you mention are commonplace in western society, especially in cities and urban areas. I'm not aware of any country in the western world taking active steps to depopulate itself as a result.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043092#Comment_121043092

Class sizes in Ireland have been decreasing for decades, because that's what the department decides is best practise. Now decreasing class sizes, without increasing the amount of classes isn't very well thought out.

There are schools all around the country that are at risk of closure because they don't have enough pupils.

Young teachers are emigrating because of the system, the cannot get permanent jobs. Clearly there is something very wrong with the system.

Some people cannot get childcare, because childcare facilities are closing down, it doesn't pay them to stay open, paying big overheads, even though wages are low.

Nurses and doctors leave because conditions are better elsewhere, the health system is too heavy with management, not enough on the front line.

Prisons, are overcrowded because prisoners have rights now. Over the last 30 years there have been many guidelines brought in as to how prisoners can be housed. They no longer throw 4/5 prisoners in together and new prisons are all single cell with toilet facilities.

there are many many reasons why these things happen, none are nearly simple as 'overcrowding '

Patrick2010

And your solution for all of the above is what exactly?

Patrick2010

Taking in more immigrants has no effect on social services? If we're putting up asylum seekers in tents does that not show we're full?

enricoh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042517#Comment_121042517

Yeah fingal no longer produce the percentage breakdown of Irish n foreign numbers for some strange reason!

There was a report recently over half those on hap in Longford foreign born. Surely some NGO can get these reports buried!

Are the 161k 'new irish' included in the Irish nationals?

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/50204-4000-new-citizens-attend-citizenship-ceremonies-in-killarney/

To date, including minors, approximately 161,000 people have received Irish citizenship since 2011.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043522#Comment_121043522

It's hardly a surprise that social housing would go to a decent number of non nationals. Irish born people are likely to be wealthier and in a position to buy their own homes. Why not ask how many non nationals own their own house or apartment in Ireland? I imagine they are underrepresented in those figures....the vast bulk of homeowners would be Irish born.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043421#Comment_121043421

Yes, commonality.

All down to migration.

See what's being said about the migration situation in Canada, for instance, where (don't laugh) they're about to allow 900,000 "students" into the countrythis year. A country similarly bursting with oh-so-similar problems, not enough this, not enough that, housing crisis etc.

It's happening everywhere and it's a matter of time until someone slams the brakes. Literally, and I do mean literally, unsustainable, even in the medium term.

You say you haven't seen any country attempt depopulation. You will. Mark it.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043423#Comment_121043423

I know where you're getting that information, and you're conveniently leaving out direct statements.

You're very good at stating things. Just stating things, mind you.

Have you decided whether you can answer what overpopulation would manifest itself as, in theory?

You also stated "there is clearly plenty of room", and I asked you to back up that assertion. You must have missed that question too.

Any chance of answering the most benign questions instead of making statements without sources or backup?

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043911#Comment_121043911

Why are there record breaking numbers of homeless Irish people then, just about every month it grows?

Does that not put a "surprise" on the handing of Irish social homes to eu and non EU nationals?

How would you explain to an Irish family stuck in a hotel that it's completely justified that an Italian family, or Indian family have been given a social house instead?

How would you sell them on the idea that "It's not a surprise"?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043950#Comment_121043950

Are you including internal migration as well? One of the reasons urban populations are so big is because people move from rural areas to the cities.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043989#Comment_121043989

No. Not internal migration.

Extra-national migration.

As I said, have a look at the discourse currently going on in Canada at the eye-watering amounts of migrants arriving.

Similarly, look at the effects.

Familiar? You bet.

Even the canadian minister has said of the student migrants alone "the government is mulling whether to cap the number of students allowed in each year as a way of easing the housing crunch."

Wow what's that, a connection being teased about the amount of migrants and housing? Say it isn't so.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043447#Comment_121043447

I wouldn't assume for a moment that I have the expertise to sort out solutions for different sections of society.

There are experts though, that can, the people on the ground in those industries would have some good ideas I'm sure.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043980#Comment_121043980

Not all homeless people in Ireland are eligible for social housing. There are a lot of working families who are losing their rental homes and cannot find anywhere to go, they can't find rentals and they can't find anywhere to buy. The reasons are many, we have a very dysfunctional housing market, which has been made that way by government policies for the last 30+ years.

Do you have a house yourself?

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043967#Comment_121043967

not until you tell us the magic number when we were overpopulated, in your mind, and what year that happened

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121035481#Comment_121035481

You do realise Ireland is not " about to start loading " anyone on barges ..that is in the UK .

Or maybe you think Ireland is part of the UK ?

What country are you from yourself ?

Geuze

Here is another example:

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2023/0829/1402320-randi-dextroy-gladston-court/

My question is: how did a Guyana national get into the country?

"Gardaí were unaware of how he came to Ireland as well, the court heard."

Our borders seem awful weak / soft.

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121044942#Comment_121044942

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/05/12/government-considering-accommodation-barges-for-1000-extra-asylum-seeker-beds-court-hears/

Oh I think they most certainly will.

I'm Irish.

hymenelectra

The Belgium government is starting to recognise the "crazy" connection between the amount of people arriving and accommodation, in just this one instance so far.

https://www.rte.ie/news/europe/2023/0829/1402353-belgium-asylum-seekers/

Ahwell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045571#Comment_121045571

"Announcing the temporary suspension", don't get excited - there's no mention of "depopulation".

hymenelectra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121044578#Comment_121044578

Still dodging the most simple questions in the world.

So, in your fantasy world, I should have to pinpoint some exact number of people and some exact date in the past when we became overpopulated, and that justifies you avoiding baking up your own far simpler observation of "There's clearly plenty of room". That's great.

Name one thing, infrastructurally or socially, that shows "we clearly have plenty of room". Go ahead.