Private to Public sector: Salary

SouthWesterly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690178#Comment_120690178

It couldn't possibly be the 35 hour week, Flexi, annual leave, shorter working year...could it ? 😁

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690146#Comment_120690146

We have a parallel private health system, you generally get seen a lot quicker.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690270#Comment_120690270

That's not the "same" service or patients. Its different services with different resources and different patients.

That's a bit like complaining about the wait times economy airlines vs private jet.

Sleepy

It's a major deterrent for a lot of us. Having worked in consultancy roles within dozens of different public sector organisations I've long since realised that while I'd much prefer something in local government to the position I have now, I can't afford to take the necessary salary hit to do so.

Even at the top end of the scales of most roles I'd be interested in, I'd still be looking at a 20-30k salary drop, at the lower end it'd be like going back to a graduate role. You see it time and time again: the councils (and most other departments I've worked in) can't retain staff with the skillset for IT technical roles (reporting and data analytics work in my current role, ERP systems in a former one) so throw recent IT graduates into these roles where they inevitably fail due to lack of experience and are moved on to administrative roles elsewhere in the council or the very rare ones that manage to rise to the challenge and become competent move on to more lucrative roles in the private sector almost as soon as they've become so (generally within a year or two of being hired). The end result is always the same: consultancy firms are brought in to provide experienced consultants at high daily rates to bridge the gap: the very same staff they should, and could be hiring in the first place if they were prepared to pay closer to the market rate for such staff. It's extremely wasteful resourcing and, rather ironically, leads to the scenario where most of the experts in the domain of public service IT provision work in the private sector... there's an entire industry based around it.

Even knowing how poor many public sector roles are paid I must admit I was shocked recently to see the salary level for the Head of IT for the new NFMHS here in Portrane. As I'd have been qualified for the role and it's literally in my neighbourhood I was considering applying for it until I saw the entry salary level for the position was in the low to mid 50s: approximately half what you'd expect for a similar role in the private sector!

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690345#Comment_120690345

Not really like that at all, it is very unusual system we have. Nobody in their right mind would pay on the double for the same thing, but the public health service is so awful in Ireland that many average people are willing to do precisely that.

The state struggles with 2 things generally, #1 efficient and timely provision of a limited resource (health, housing etc), #2 getting it's employees to do something they were not doing yesterday (digitisation of health service, inability to roll out mass free testing in the first Covid year resulting in long closures of businesses).

https://www.irishtimes.com/health/2023/01/25/digitisation-of-health-service-is-being-impeded-by-bad-actors-former-department-head-says/

Germany managed to have free antigen testing in 2020/2021 when we were still having months long closures of restaurants. The PS went with the passive approach of just setting rules and shifting responsibility to others.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690403#Comment_120690403

I wonder how much of it is due to many of those making decisions being so insitutionalised that they have no idea how things are done elsewhere? Graduates are generally not able to work on very complex projects and are doomed to fail.

readoutloud

Seems to be an argument here that certain, highly-paid private sector workers should be entitled to have their salaries matched if they deign to grace the public service. But I'm not sure why they should jump in at top tier increments, given they made the decision to spend the first part of their career in the private sector, earning those "big bucks".

Complaining that you'd have to take a €20,000 to €30,000 hit is sort of tone deaf to those in the public sector who never earned that much.

Basically, the pay is the pay, everyone gets the same deal. Seems fair enough to me.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690417#Comment_120690417

It's exactly like that.

You've now gone of on about 10 different tangents that have nothing to do with the topic

If you think faraway hills are greener, why are you still here looking at them. Germany also has lots of issues with Covid, Healthcare and housing. Housing crash was caused by private banks, private developers, and the Govt outsourcing social housing to private sector has only made it worse not better.

atahuapla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689939#Comment_120689939

Not the case at all. Currently a middle manager in an MNC. The public sector role seems to be much more "senior" than where I'm at. More people to manage, greater responsibility and by the looks of the job description, more autonomy.

The downside is that I'm bored and this public sector role is in an organisation that I admire, am genuinely interested in its success and am qualified for. I could hack a 30%ish pay cut but not a +60% one.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690403#Comment_120690403

Well thats the trade off isn't it.

This thread is basically wanting your cake and eat it. Wanting all the advantages and none of the disadvantages.

If you want the best of both worlds, do some contracting for the private sector. The pension is of no value to you, but the working conditions will be similar for more pay. Or find a private company that has a lot of similar perks. Tech companies are often not that much different. If you can find one that isn't always firefighting deadlines.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690546#Comment_120690546

This is the typical kind of attitude: you should take what you are given and be happy with it.

Why can't we demand more from state services? Why should we be happy with it?

The housing crash was caused by the government of the day pumping the bubble, not regulating the banks and increasing spending based on one off taxes from the housing market. The only entity that has any control over any that and an ability to change rules, like mortgage lending limits etc, is the government. They could have done that at the time, but it would have been unpopular to take the sweets away, so of course they didn't.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690478#Comment_120690478

"graduates are making decisions on complex projects" isn't really a big thing, private or public.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690576#Comment_120690576

It would be in everyone's interest to have a PS that makes it easier for highly skilled individuals from outside the PS join, even if that means that those who "have served their time" might not get the promotion they were "in line for" or whatever. That kind of thinking has resulted in the PS that we have today, one that struggles with anything related to new tech.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690630#Comment_120690630

I was thinking specifically around the area of software development, a manager who hasn't got a clue about it often thinks you just need to get a few people who know how to code. The fact is there is a big difference between cobbling something together and just about getting it working (which a junior might be able to do) and developing something that is flexible, easy to maintain and anticipates future change (which requires a lot of experience).

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690591#Comment_120690591

The Govt might have sat on its hands. But the private sector built the bubble and burst it.

Its the typical attitude. People wanting others to do what they aren't willing to do themselves. Backseat driving.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690651#Comment_120690651

Again, complex projects, and decisions, architecture, aren't done by "juniors" in public or private.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690676#Comment_120690676

Many people in Ireland rightly look at other countries that manage to have decent health services and wonder why we can't have the same? A big part of it is an inflexible state system, resistance to change, lifers who see the PS has their little fiefdom and are challenged by people outside criticising it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690403#Comment_120690403

Could you imagine the public outcry, if they suddenly started offering private sector / market rates for public service roles? 🤣

It's never going to happen. Simply put, the general public place no value on public servants or the work they do.

Look at the furore every time there is a mention of a public sector payrise.

On one hand, the public will constantly complain about services and expect private sector standards, but on the other are totally unwilling to actually pay people their worth, let alone market rate.

The last round of pay increases didn't even come halfway to meeting the cost of living increases. And keep an eye out for the bitching when the next round of talks begins.

My two cents worth - if you expect private sector pay, you'll have to stay in the private sector.

Sleepy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690178#Comment_120690178

As someone who'd like to make the move myself I'll have a shot at answering that:

1. Job Security - Private companies can go bust or have to lay off staff during hard times. During the recession in 2009, I was made redundant despite being in a position where I was making money for the company I worked for, at statutory minimum and with a young family to support at the time. I ended up commuting to London for just over 6 months during some of my kids most formative years before I could get a permanent position at home again (actually still in a more senior version of that position 12 years later). The experience can change you. It certainly left me more risk averse.
2. Family friendly hours or "work life balance". The firm I work for now are pretty family friendly being a relative small, practically family business, but previous roles I've had in the private sector have been the classic 50/60 hours a week with another 10 hours of travel or commuting time on top and still checking emails / having a "quick" conference call with a foreign office after hours. I still occasionally have weeks or months like that but they're the exception rather than the rule, in many MNCs or larger organisations, they're the norm.
3. You may laugh at this one but a draw to public service. Most of the truly satisfying projects I've been involved with have been with my public sector clients. Helping to make a particular department more efficient, freeing up public facing staff to focus on that side of their job rather than paperwork, report generation and "drudge work" feels more personally satisfying than helping a private sector client to better analyse the profitability of their various divisions etc. An example from a UK based council I worked with during Covid was leveraging data they had in their social housing system about a rental credit for those suffering from Covid and merging it with geo-spatial data about properties in their borough to provide mapping of Covid outbreaks. The feeling of doing some "good" during a pandemic certainly didn't reflect in my pay for that month but it was inarguably of benefit to my mental health at the time and something I'd like to experience more of. Of course it doesn't compare to vocation that front line staff in the health service must have but I think there's a lot to be said for knowing you're working in a role where you're at the very least contributing to the good of the greater public rather than simply selling them something.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690688#Comment_120690688

Sleepy's direct experience above would seem to suggest otherwise. I am not familiar with how software development is done (or indeed more likely not done) in the state sector, but I have over 20 years experience of software development in the private sector.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690631#Comment_120690631

The issue with PS is not struggling with "tech" its all the other stuff.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690563#Comment_120690563

I argue it is. You're seeing "seniority" as parallel (in broad terms) with salary in the private sector. It doesn't work the same at all.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690702#Comment_120690702

Lots of countries have problems with their health service. It likely when looking at other countries they are selectively picking the best parts while ignoring the other factors that at play. Higher taxes, wealthier countries.

Again this is again off topic. The topic is about salary parity between private and public.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690716#Comment_120690716

It's still the same issue, why pubic and private don't have parity on pay, and why tenure is a factor.

I know why people would trade salary for security and a better work/life balance.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690798#Comment_120690798

It isn't off topic, the thread is about experienced private sector staff facing issues when joining the PS due to the overvaluing of "length of service". I would argue that it is that kind of thinking that has resulted in the level of services that we have. I think there should be a change in thinking where people at all career levels are encouraged to move in and out of the PS.

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688815#Comment_120688815

Is seniority and knowledge from the department of agriculture relevant to a role in the department of finance, especially when compared to a CFO of 20 years experience?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690813#Comment_120690813

If you want flexibility of "moving in and out", you have it on the private sector. You don't need to go near the pubic sector at all. if you want mobility why would you want to be in the Public sector. That makes no sense.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690730#Comment_120690730

Quote where sleep says juniors or graduate are making decisions on complex projects'. I can't see it.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690829#Comment_120690829

It makes no sense if you have the lifer type mentality. The goal of the public service should be the provision of services and finding the best way to do that, not providing lifetime employment to people who overvalue security. By encouraging people to move out, I would think have increased numbers of grades with a smaller number of increments, those who don't perform would remain stuck at a lower level and might move on.

Sleepy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690706#Comment_120690706

I don't think anyone on this thread is arguing that the pay levels should have parity or be paid at full market rate, just that the current system isn't ideal.

In the example given by the OP, someone with 20 years relevant experience in the private sector looking to apply for some of the role would be paid less (were they to be hired at all) than someone with 5 years experience in the public sector. The point was made that a hiring manager may be able to secure an exemption to the hiring procedures to fill a particular role but let's face it, they're only going to get to do that if the person with 5 years PS experience is judged to be completely incapable of taking on the role. The end result being that a better qualified candidate is missed out on because they're being offered less pay than someone less suited for the role.

Even as someone who's become generally supportive of PS unions as I've gotten older, they're still one of the key reasons for PS inefficiency and under-performance. When thousands of different roles get paid on the basis of a relatively narrow grade/scale system, there's nowhere near enough flexibility for niche or in-demand skillsets to be remunerated at close enough to market level to attract and retain talent. And on the flip side, there' an awful lot of room for low-skilled (most often administrative) roles to actually be over-compensated compared to market rate based purely on the tenure of the person in that role (e.g. a Grade 3 Clerical officer on the LSI could have a gross pay of €44,110 while doing a role they'd be lucky to break €30k for in the private sector role).