General Premier League Thread 2023-24 Mod Note in op 27/6/23 And 21/05/24

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566761#Comment_121566761

Doesn't rate Maguire either but he still showed up and trained etc. He got his chance and kept it till injury. Actually I'm not even going to bother talk with someone defending Sancho, waste of time.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121565608#Comment_121565608

That isn't even close to true, how on earth can a dive mean no physical contact?

If I rest my hand on your shoulder and you throw yourself to the ground are you seriously going to pretend it wasn't a dive? Because there was contact? Come on.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567555#Comment_121567555

I'm going by what's been said on commentary: for simulation to be a yellow card offense, there has to be no contact. This is why you don't see as many yellow cards for simulation any more.

In any case, I don;t beleive Jota dived for the reasons mentioned replying to noodler above.

TitianGerm

https://twitter.com/MailSport/status/1742640476912537864?t=j47DT9iNL6x1OyMC99Bc4g&s=19

Apparently Arsenal have complained to PGMOL because Saka is the third most fouled player in the PL 😂

Poor auld Salah is pushed, kicked, hacked down and swung out of in every game and gets absolutely nothing.

~Rebel~

Yeah, like at least Saka actually gets the fouls. Mo doesn't even have the stats to back him up since lads can drag out of him with nary a whistle blown.

retalivity

Never would have had Ayew as #1 on that list

doc_17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121567461#Comment_121567461

Oh God, it’s not really defending Sancho, but he’s watching Antony week in and week out. That takes its toll on him I’d say. Anyway, Sancho is better off outta there.

doc_17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121566813#Comment_121566813

None taken. This is the premier league thread, that’s why I’m commenting. Ten Hag is picking someone who is clearly not up to it ahead of Sancho. Both were given time off for various issues, Ten Hag publicly attacked one of them, which is awful management. That’s my point, Ten Hag is no good for that man’s career and he needs to get outta there.

The Rooster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568974#Comment_121568974

To call it ‘publicly attacking’ is a gross exaggeration.

ETH was asked in a televised press conference why Sancho was not in the matchday squad. He said that training hadn’t gone well for him this week so he was sitting out this game. He only referred to training in recent days and this next match alone. When you watch the press conference it’s very tame what was said, when you just read a transcript without context it looked harsher. Sancho completely jumped the gun with his tweet and for him not to apologize is irrational. He is like the Mayo Burke eejits, choosing to be an outcast.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568006#Comment_121568006

Its about Saka not Salah. Saka gets booted around in virtually every game and for some reason they get a couple of big fouls in before we see a yellow card.

TitianGerm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569376#Comment_121569376

And Salah gets the exact same but doesn't get any frees. Salah has had lads swinging out of him in a headlock before and play on was waved. Ronaldo and Hazard used to get lumps kicked out of them and didn't get half as many frees as they should have.

Father Hernandez

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568974#Comment_121568974

I'm not sure the below quote can be deemed publicly attacking Sancho?

"On his performance on training we didn't select him," the manager said. "You have to reach the level every day at Manchester United. You can make choices in the front line, so in this game, he wasn't selected."

This is the same manager who allowed Sancho a 3 month break in 2022 for physical and mental reasons, he was given time off, allowed to get his head right and has since come back into the squad and done fúck all. Never rewarded the manager on the pitch and has now the audacity to bítch and moan when the manager calls him out a bit.

In comparison, Pochettino 'publicly attacked' Noni Madueke 2/3 weeks ago by saying "From the beginning of the season he was involved then not involved and suffered some injuries and problems. Noni is in a position where there is massive competition and he needs to increase his level. He was injured and now recovered and maybe will be involved in the next games."

Madueke's response? 2 goals in his last 3 games while starting 1 of the games.

ETH isn't the saviour but neither is Sancho. I don't understand why people are defending him tbh. It's been nearly 4 months since he's played for the club - a slap in the face to the manager, his team mates and the fans. A huge amount of money was spent on him with massive salary paid to him every week for an extremely small return. I mentioned in the the Man United thread that not once this season have I thought to myself - I wish Sancho was available cause he'd change this game. He's done next to nothing in a United shirt.

Up there with one of the worst United's signings in recent times and there have been plenty.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569376#Comment_121569376

It’s the life of a pacy forward. If you have the ability to skin most of your opponents you’re going to get brought down regularly as they attempt to challenge you.

The article says last year that Arteta basically told him he has to learn to manage it. Now that he has a potential injury Arsenal are asking the referees to protect him? It seems staggeringly entitled.

Necro

Mod: Folks if you have an issue with someone's posting please report it don't respond in this nature on thread. Warnings will be issued going forward.

Edit: rather than single people out I've deleted the posts and cleaned the thread up a bit.

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569394#Comment_121569394

Right and referees need to issue yellow cards. This isn't that complicated or deep, team looks out for their own players shocker.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569387#Comment_121569387

I think there's a few important distinctions between those two statements - most of all the context they occurred in. Poch's is talking about someone who had been out injured, and was on the path of coming back into the team after recovery, and saying they'll need to play well because the competition is high, but that they should see involvement in coming games. It's cautiously positive.

Ten Hag on the other hand was the opposite, saying someone's just been dropped because they weren't putting in any effort in training, which is much more immediate and direct and damning. I'd agree it wasn't the worst phrasing - but it's also getting you absolutely nothing. It was a total misjudgment of how his player would react, which is part of his job to be aware of.

Just to add 2 things - I don't believe for a second that Madueke's improvement came as a result of that public statement, but rather from the actual work they're doing behind closed doors, and, I have zero time for Sancho either, he's behaved like a child throughout - but it's his managers job to manage his idiot children to get the best out of them which clearly hasn't happened here.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568569#Comment_121568569

Its not surprising tbh. He is their main outball and thus has also completed most dribbles in the Premier League 2023.

Ayew really goes under the radar.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569486#Comment_121569486

He's been surprisingly good this season alright. Eze and Olise get the attention, but Ayew's been important for them, and has double the assists of anyone else.

Father Hernandez

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569472#Comment_121569472

I don't disagree with your points but ETH never said Sancho wasn't putting any effort in training. He insinuated he wasn't at the required level. To be fair, Sancho has never been at the required level on the pitch so I can't imagine he was doing it off the pitch either.

IMO, ETH simply lost patience with him but he hardly went to town on Sancho. As a not native speaker, his phrasing wasn't perhaps the best but I don't think Sancho should've reacted the way he did saying ETH said something "completely untrue". This is especially after everything that happened the previous season with his break which is pretty unheard of these days. He has not rewarded the manager nor the club for it. Nearly 3 years at the club and barely 1 memorable performance or moment.

I was making the comparison between Madueke and Sancho simply because Madueke didn't get the hump and has reacted positively on the pitch whereas Sancho hasn't played in 4 months and is refusing to play for the club. They're not like for like obviously but given Poch's comments after the Palace game ("I like it because he showed he was upset with me"), it at least shows Madueke kept his head up and proved a point on the pitch immediately. Sancho has checked out and refused to play for the club. There's been a lot of problems at United and ETH is one of them but in this instance, I'd have to back the manager.

Ottoman_1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569376#Comment_121569376

But the same could be said for every quick wide forward at the top teams. For every Saka, you have a Salah, Bowen, Doku, etc that gets pulled, dragged, and kicked on a weekly basis, some don't even get free's for the constant fouls committed on them!

artanevilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121568006#Comment_121568006

When you think Arteta learnt his trade from Pep but find out it's actually Mourinho.

doc_17

All Ten Hag had to do was dodge the question. He chose to answer it.

Lauras Law

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570069#Comment_121570069

Last year ten Hag gave Sancho months off to get his head straight, provided him with personal training programs in the Netherlands to help him, never spoke publicly about any of the reported issues Sancho had. He seemed to be doing everything he could to protect the player and get him back in form. I'm sure it gets to a point when a manager has tried everything he can privately to get a player working hard and they are not responding to it, something has to give. A comment to media is not the worst, and after everything that has gone on with the player over the past 2 seasons the supporters deserved it.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570165#Comment_121570165

I totally get that frustration can build and make you make a mistake, which is what happened. He vented, when he should've communicated, and it's proven to be the wrong approach with the wrong player - and it's hurt the club. I think everyone comes out of it looking bad.

If he really really felt he had to, he could still have made the same point if he just used some nuance, offering some hint of a positive element (so its stick and carrot rather than just stick) in the same way that Pochetino did by adding that Madueke would be getting opportunities to impress. Had Ten Hag had just a bit more tact (a pretty key part of player management) and said "On his performance in training we didn't select him... but we know he's a brilliant player so I've no doubt he'll push his way back in with his next chance" then things might have been different. But instead he made a negative point, and left it at that. It's just bad communication, especially when you know you're dealing with a man-child.

happyoutscan

Sometimes you get to the point where enough is enough.

ETH gave him plenty of attention and care and was given nothing in return. Nothing. Not even effort, which is free.

Sancho is washed up and when he realises how much he has lost he will look to blame everyone exccept himself. That's his character.

Impossible to deal with people like that.

Mitch Connor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121569472#Comment_121569472

i think there is more to ot than just the comments, and always have.

Sancho 'left' training early on that Friday. It has later been said there was an argument between the two regarding his application as a shadow player in training that day (to mirror the arsenal press).

So I think Sancho blew up at ETH at training, and its not just the match day comments that are/were an issue. I think it is a personal issue between the two at this point.

I'd also read previously that he was supposed to start vs Spurs earlier in the season, but had been late to training so was dropped to the bench.

I have also read more than just Sancho think some players are treated differently by ETH and held to a different standard. I've read Rashford (public comments about him going out after the City defeat), Varane (dropped for Evans for 'tactical reasons'), Casemiro dropped (wants more football from the side) and Martinez (played through discomfort/pain into a reoccurance of his injury) and Mount (dropped after return from injury, without being told why or what he needed to change - apparently linked to a disagreement over training and injury recovery) have all had fairly significant issues with ETH this season. In general I have read the squad are also unhappy with ETH with regards to training in general - too much running, not enough tactical work being the theme. So i don't personally believe Sancho is 100% to blame in this. I think ETH has made sa lot of poor decisions.

However, it has also been said that Sancho has had similar issues with application and professionalism with England and Dortmund - and at United. So it could easily be that the comments Eric made were an attempt to publicly chide him, but also made after protecting and trying other methods with the player for a year, and not getting the desired results.

Related to this, I think the punishment given to Sancho is a disgrace. Not even allowed to use the U18 facilities if those players are around, training on his own. IMO demotion to the reserve team is where it should have gone to, and ended. I do think if United had any kind of authority above ETH in a footballing sense, we would have seen this play out differently.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570390#Comment_121570390

For sure - that's when you put them up for sale and move on with as little furore as possible, rather than destroying their value and making it far more difficult to get rid of them.

Mitch Connor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570464#Comment_121570464

and apparently early in the saga there was a meeting where it was almost agreed to move on and he'd come back into the squad... til Eric insisted on a public apology from Sancho, which was flatly rejected.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570484#Comment_121570484

Yeah, it's that 'stand off' seems to have become the big problem on both sides. It all just looks like a big mess with big egos.

El Gato De Negocios

Sancho is one of the highest paid players in the world, he was given months off last season to deal with his own personal issues and all he had to do with ETH was apologise and he would be back with the first team.

I expect rival fans to throw shade about how ETH has handled it as a way to have digs at United in general, but considering how many players have ridden roughshod at the club over the last number of years its staggering that any United fan would disagree with the manager on this one.

To paraphrase the GOAT, no player is bigger than the club.

Kiith

Act like a child, get treated like a child. Not sure why anyone would defend the kind of behaviour Sancho has shown. Its not like he even had the performance to back up his issues, he was shite. Did absolutely nothing for Utd, despite the massive money he's on.

Utd are blessed to have him off their books, even if its only temporary.

doc_17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570226#Comment_121570226

I agree. It is mainly Sancho’s fault. But players nowadays don’t take kindly to public criticism and know it’s highly likely they will outlast the manager.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570586#Comment_121570586

I don't think too many are defending his behaviour. He's an idiotic child. But he's also a very expensive asset. So it's up to the grown ups to manage that behaviour, or get rid of him with the least fuss possible.

Infoseeker1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570586#Comment_121570586

Obviously I have no clue about the ins and outs of how Sancho behaved though a big part of modern management is dealing with players who earn a lot more than you, I can only imagine it is a headwreck. It definitely requires a specific skillset.

The likes of Leroy Sane, Jesus, etc may have been heading down the same road but the club got ahead of it and managed a decent return for the player.

For Utd, it may have been better to have had Sancho in the team for a while and then at least he might have a greater value in this window, he could not be much worse than those playing in the forward positions at the moment for them.

It would not be surprising to see him play well for Dortmund to prove a point to the manager, that point is irrelevant though managers will constantly have players like this to deal with, it will only get worse as oil money will drive wages in one direction.

Fitz*

ETH had to lay down the law to be fair, and as others have said he gave Sancho the time off to get things straight. It appears that Sancho didn't pull his weight and continued with the lateness etc and when the manager is trying to set standards then something has to give.

Sancho was benched and not starting - fair. Maybe the public criticism was unfair but again when the private help didn't work maybe a kick up the arse publicly might work. A new directive was needed. In the end, it hasn't worked, and maybe the fall-out of that is worse than the actual action. There is now constant talk of players falling out with ETH now, when (Ronaldo aside) there was none last season, unless there were some that I can't remember at the moment. Ronaldo was quickly shown the door. Rashford is good friends with Sancho and his form has fallen off a cliff compared to last season. Maybe ETH is too harsh in his dictator style approach with banning media and not allowing Sancho to use the canteen underage training facilities, let alone the senior facilities. But I guess he needs to set the standards himself as the players won't do it themselves.

Milner & Henderson used to run the dressing room at Liverpool and by the sounds of things, they ran an extremely tight ship with lateness and fines. Milner particularly always on the case with players being late / using mobile phones / incorrect clothes etc. Because of the 'leadership group' (Milner/Henderson/VVD/Robbo/Salah/Trent/Alisson) that cracked down on the players within the dressing rooms on these rules, it was almost self-governing. A player would have to deal with Milner before they broke it a 2nd time, let alone a 3rd time and Klopp eventually found out about it. Players were not late as a result. Standards were kept high.

There's a video here (12.59 in) of Milner talking about how he was on the case of a youth player in training, and giving him the talk. Saying that the player had the natural talent but needed to apply himself better in order to realise that talent. It took that a player a bit to realise it, but it is because of the likes of Milner constantly on his case that that player is now having a good level career and didn't throw it away. The online rumours as to who he is talking about would suggest that the player is close to the same age as Sancho too and currently playing at a big club in the PL.

Is there anybody doing this at Man Utd? Because I really struggle to think that Bruno or Rashford or even Varane/Casemiro are doing this. Maybe there is a problem in the dressing room? Who sets the standard? There is a lack of leaders IMO. Which would explain as to why ETH is being a bit heavy handed in his approach to Sancho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppmUxFReQT4#t=12m59s

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570440#Comment_121570440

Nah you dont want any of the U21's or U18's getting a whiff of Sancho's "professionalism" so you have to keep him well the fùck away from them.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570853#Comment_121570853

Nemanja Matic used to do this very thing, or at least tried to while he was here. Think he said he collected 80k in fines one season, highlighting Pogba and Sancho for their constant lateness and refusal to change.

Father Hernandez

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570853#Comment_121570853

There really isn't a group of leaders like that at United. It's why the captaincy debate keeps coming up.

Players in that type of mould all have their issues - not guaranteed starter, out of form, probably going to leave soon, petulance, injuries, etc.

Varane, Maguire, Shaw, Fernandes, Rashford, Eriksen, Casemiro should be those players but quite obviously aren't for some of the reasons mentioned above. They just don't exist in the squad right now.

El Gato De Negocios

The only player I can think of that's shown any form of leadership credentials for us on field has been Martinez. It is not imo a coincidence that when he got injured last season things got wobbly. He has also missed most of this season so far. He is very much an "ETH guy" and having someone like him as a constant onfield and dressing room presence has been a huge loss.

bucketybuck

There is now constant talk of players falling out with ETH now, when (Ronaldo aside) there was none last season, unless there were some that I can't remember at the moment. 

I've made the point before that considering the extreme lack of character in that squad, I would be more concerned if Ten Hag wasn't falling out with people. The last thing United needs is another Ole trying to be their friend, they are proven failures and the time for babysitting them has long passed.

Ten Hag can fall out with the **** lot of them, get rid of them one by one if he has to. Until the squad as a whole gets the message that they aren't bigger than the club then United are going nowhere.

This is a necessary evil.

bucketybuck

For Utd, it may have been better to have had Sancho in the team for a while and then at least he might have a greater value in this window, he could not be much worse than those playing in the forward positions at the moment for them.

There is very little evidence that Sancho would be better than anybody, he certainly didn't earn himself a spot even before that Ten Hag comment. The guy has done nothing for United since he joined, his entire career is marked by unprofessionalism at every club, I don't know why people think we are missing out on anything much now that he's has been gone.

Infoseeker1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571271#Comment_121571271

If his entire career was marked by unprofessionalism at every club, then why would a professional club pay €85m for him?

I assumed this issue only started once he joined Utd.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571318#Comment_121571318

Then you assumed wrong. City, Dortmund, England and United, there are reports from all of them about problems with Jadon Sancho. I can provide links if you want or need, but a quick google should get you more than enough.

Here is one for flavour sure:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/man-city-transfer-jadon-sancho-13426389

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571318#Comment_121571318

United over the last 10 years have proven again and again to be the absolute antithesis of a professional club when it comes to transfers and player contracts.

Have a read of this to illustrate the Clown show the club has been since SAF left.

https://archive.is/mbDJm

Infoseeker1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571356#Comment_121571356

I don't doubt it, I know little about Sancho, to me it seems reckless to spend €85 million on that type of player and also likely to be on massive wages for someone so young which would only make motivation harder if he isn't a resilient/driven to succeed type of a person.

Father Hernandez

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571407#Comment_121571407

Pogba, Sanchez, Antony, Sancho, Maguire, di Maria, Mount, Fred, Martial were all £50million+ and all pretty much reckless. It's the only thing United do best these days.

happyoutscan

In no way should a player like that be around the U18s. FFS he has zero self-awareness, zero self-reflection and is a proper egotist by the looks of it.

Not the type of personality you want around younger players in my opinion.

Fitz*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121570915#Comment_121570915

Yeah there doesn't seem to be leaders in the squad, both from the pre-ETH squad but also from the singings being made since, which doesn't help.

Definitely something that would need to be addressed in the coming windows IMO. There are positions that need filling on the pitch, but while addressing those positions, you also need to bring in hungry players (likes of Varane & Casemiro looking for a last big paycheck should not be targeted) but it's a catch 22 situation as these players need to have shown some leadership capabilities. That right balanced mix of hunger and experience. It's not an easy task. It's a bit like Dream Team from back in the day but I really wouldn't be surprised to see a situation where Man Utd buy a player this summer and make him club captain.

Oddly enough, and I'm not saying that he is the required standard of player at all and I don't know what he is like off the pitch, but Conor Gallagher is captaining Chelsea atm. It's rumored that Chelsea want/need to sell him to meet FFP requirements. 23 and this will be his 4th full PL season under his belt and has that mix of hunger and experience with some leadership qualities. Again, he might not be the required level of player either but Morgan Gibbs White is growing closer to being ready to step up to the next level of club. Forest in trouble too with FFP. Both players, to me, look to have a much better work rate and drive than many in the Man Utd squad but maybe they lack in other attributes so might not be a viable transfer. The last 10 years would see Man Utd turn their noses up to those players, just because of their name. Man Utd would be far likelier to buy Benjamin Mendy & Havertz than sign Andy Robertson and Kulusevski for example. I know who I would rather have.

Too many in the squad are either on the way down, or have 'settled' at the club and happy to have made their big move and get their contract. It's possibly the biggest aspect to a transfer for a club - knowing when to not sign a player. A club can sign the 10 most naturally talented players in the world for £100m each but a player costing £10m could end up being the better signing because of what's between their ears.

jacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571509#Comment_121571509

Hasn't been near an England squad in over 2 years either.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121571407#Comment_121571407

It was criminally reckless, and illustrates just how bad United have been managed to this point.

But regardless of that, the trick now is to avoid any sunk cost fallacy and don't stick with him just because he cost money, if he is unprofessional then recognise that and take the appropriate action.