General Premier League Thread 2023-24 Mod Note in op 27/6/23 And 21/05/24

y0ssar1an22

i wonder how far in the future the city hearing is set for?

Premier League chief executive Richard Masters:

When questioned by the Culture, Media and Sport Committee at a select committee meeting on Tuesday over whether he could understand fans' frustrations regarding the delay to the City hearing, Masters said: "I can but they are very different charges.

"If any club, whether they are the current champions or otherwise, had been found in breach of the spending rules for year '23, they would be in exactly the same position as Everton or Nottingham Forest.

"The volume and character of the charges laid before Man City, which I cannot talk about at all, are being heard in a completely different environment.

"There is a date set for that proceeding. Unfortunately, I can't tell you when that is but that is progressing. I can't give any details on Man City beyond saying a date has been set, I can't tell you when that date is.

"On Chelsea, as you know, the new owners came forward with information to The FA, UEFA and Premier League about previous ownership and we're still investigating that. We don't announce the outcome of that until we have completed those investigations."

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13049544/man-city-charges-premier-league-chief-executive-richard-masters-confirms-date-set-for-hearing

klose

Mourinho sacked at Roma, will we ever see him back in the premier league?

AdamD

Most successful businesses are profit making, they dont avoid it just to dodge tax. Investment in infrastructure wouldn't impact your profit either

IncognitoMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624084#Comment_121624084

I said in the first message that looking at stats on Wiki you'd say Salah was better.

It was never a conversation about Stat vs stat. I said it was something that wasn't on paper.

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121623016#Comment_121623016

Good management in football is primarily about having sound enough judgement to hire the right personnel rather than the amount of money you have at your disposal to enable you to do that. It's the same at all levels of the professional game. At Premier League level - which we're discussing here - Pep and Klopp have been head and shoulders above their peers in this regard for several years now and , yes, both would be successful managing at any level.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625914#Comment_121625914

I'll agree Pep would be successful at any level when I actually see him manage at a level that isn't "already the best team in the country with the most money and he gets total control".

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625914#Comment_121625914

Not sure how you can put PG and JK in the same bracket tbh. City were putting things in place for PG long before he arrived and he walked into a multiple trophy winning squad. JK inherited a basket case that hadn't won anything of note in more than a decade. JK is well ahead of PG in my estimation.

McFly85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627211#Comment_121627211

It was the same at Munich too. He’s an outlier in management as he’s announced months ahead of time while his chosen club prepare for his arrival.

Hes an excellent coach, but I think all of the top managers mentioned would have had similar success at the clubs he’s been at with the resources and funds available to him. Rarely do we see him have to make do with anything - what other club could spend 100m on bit part players, or give established players like Sane or Cancelo the boot the moment Pep wants them gone.

In some ways he’s a status symbol for a club as much as a coach, the epitome of “look how much money we have”.

Ottoman_1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121627211#Comment_121627211

I have to agree. If I was UTD fan for example, and if Ineos came out and laid out a 5 year grand plan to get them back to the top, and the manager to lead it was a choice between Pep or Klopp. I'd pick Klopp 7 days of the week.

Don't get me wrong, I like Pep, I think he's a master tactician and is one of the few managers in the game who can manage the multiple billion dollar squads, and never let the egos take over. You never see teams or players not put in a shift for him, and that says a lot.

But he also has to have full control, if he wants a certain player, he gets him, if one of his key players wants to leave, its not happening. If an expensive flop or trouble maker comes on board and is not to his taste, he can get rid, financial implications are not an issue.

Everything has to be in place for him to come in and work his magic.

Suvarnabhumi

Imagine Guardiola trying to work under the Glazers :D He wouldn't last 5 minutes.

rob316

Your a sleeping giant and want to build a sustainable project on a 5 year plan, Klopp is your man. There is something so old school about him yet so modern.

You are the best team in your league and want to continue that, Pep is your man. While City's financials are more than questionable, the ability to motivate players to keep winning is a special talent in itself and I think underrated in these debates.

As a liverpool fan I have watched Klopp bring a rag tag outfit slowly to one of the best in Europe once and hopefully on the way to again, he is a visionary and a master of man management. He did the same at Dortmund, breaking their Bayerns dominance and turning them into one of the top sides in Europe, all while Bayern had the pick of their best players.

They both are so dedicated though, watch the Man City documentary, Pep is absolutely exhausting in his pursuit for perfection.

Its like the Ronaldo and Messi debate, can't we just be happy we have both?

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625914#Comment_121625914

Liverpools recruitment was sensational though, the ability to pick up players with huge potential for modest fees. Salah, Mane, Firmino, Gini, Fabinho, Robertson. Free transfers like Milner and Matip then the big transfers of Alisson and VVD were flawless best in the world players.

Klopp wanted Brandt instead of Salah but the structures at the club were right and Klopp trusted them. Your still only as good as your recruitment

Pauliedragon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121628247#Comment_121628247

Was just about to post something similar. Take United for example. If I was a UTD fan and I was offered a choice of Pep or Klopp right now it would be Klopp all the way. Pep has yet to go into a club that's a bit of a mess and tidy it up and take them back to the top table. That's not taking anything from Pep but he's untested in that area in the PL at least. He will get you trophies though.

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121629706#Comment_121629706

If we are talking silverware its obviously a no contest, Pep has won multiples of Klopp but been the most successful manager doesn't necessarily make you the best manager. The reason why I hate when a manager is linked to a big club and fans say "but he's won nothing", there is so much more elements in a top manager than just winning a trophy.

Pep at Barca, incredible side, had possibly the greatest player ever with generational midfield players.

Bayern - thats a black mark on his book IMO, he arguably made them a worse side than the treble winning side he took over. Bayern were already the dominant side in german football winning the league isn't an achievement, he failed to win a CL there winning it before and after him.

City - all the right structure, unlimited funds, inherit some of the best players to play in the league.

How many managers are given the above?

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121629807#Comment_121629807

I think that's a little bit harsh on Peps time at Barcelona.

At the time he took over they weren't an 'incredible side' - they'd finished 3rd, 18 points behind RM the previous season. He rebuilt, getting rid of stars like Ronaldinho and Deco and promoting younger players from the academy and buying outsider players relatively cheaply (Pique €5M, Alves €20M, stuff like that).

Messi was in place, definitely. But he wasn't the greatest player ever then. Huge, massive potential but he had scored 'just' 16 and 17 goals in the previous two seasons. Under Pep he upped that to 30s, 40s and beyond.

Like it's not taking Accrington to the EPL by any means, but I think it's closer to Klopp/Liverpool etc than you are giving him credit for. His later moves to BM and City, yeah, agree with that. But maybe he considers that Barca was actually the hard graft from a lower base so he's already proven he could do it.

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121630152#Comment_121630152

No I'd agree if i was to flesh out the point, he did an incredible job with Barcelona.

McFly85

Barca had gone a whopping 2 seasons without a trophy, they did the league and CL double in 05/06.

No doubt he made them an unbelievable side, but it was still one of the biggest sides in La Liga. packed with talent and was winning major trophies before he was there. I don’t think it’s comparable to Klopp and Liverpool.

POKERKING

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121630152#Comment_121630152

I dont think city were in as good a place as is made out when he took over either. Squad was aging(4 full backs were 30+ and we know how much he relies on them) and they had only managed to make the champions league due to a last day win at Swansea in 2016. Yes they had won the league two seasons before but there was a big overhaul needed too. Granted he still had david silva, kdb and aguero to build his team around. His first season was a borderline disaster though.

Agree with what fitz said above, horses for courses. Neither city or Liverpool would swap managers as each is perfectly suited to their club. I say lets enjoy both, who are head and shoulders above the rest, prob in the world with the odd exception.

Liam O

Pep would make any team play like his ideal. Even when City were not that team when he first joined he had them doing it by the 2nd season. Obviously the money probably accelerated that and he was able to discard players a bit more easily but I've no doubt he could go into United and have them playing far better within a season.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121630152#Comment_121630152

Pep became Barca manager May 2008.

Messi was 3rd in the Ballon D'or 2007, 2nd to Ronaldo in 2008. He was absolutely already one of the worlds very best players before Pep arrived.

Valdes, Pique, Marquez, Puyol, Alves, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Messi, Eto, Henry. Sound like a good team?

Yaya Toure, Gudjohnsen, Pedro, Slyvinho, Milito, Abidal, sound like a good bench?

All were there for Pep in 2008.

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121630200#Comment_121630200

Klopp at Liverpool isn't a flash in the pan either, he did the same at Dortmund.

rob316

Here is what klopp inherited plus Henderson and firmino.

Newcastle chairman faces £58m lawsuit for ‘carrying out’ malicious instructions.

Newcastle United’s chairman, Yasir al-Rumayyan, is facing a £58m lawsuit for allegedly “having carried out the instructions” of Saudi Arabia’s crown prince, Mohammad bin Salman, with “malicious intent”, it has been reported.

The claims, which are said to be made in legal papers sent to Rumayyan at several locations, including at St James’ Park, also allege that he acted with the aim of “harming, silencing and ultimately destroying” the family of Dr Saad Aljabri, the kingdom’s former intelligence chief. According to the Athletic, the papers have asked a court for Rumayyan, who is also the chairman of LIV Golf, to be added to an existing case, and for a new claim to be brought against him and the others.

The claimants also allege Rumayyan was “directly involved” in a three-and-a-half-year campaign between June 2017 and January 2021 to pursue the family of Aljabri, who is a former top aide to Prince Mohammed bin Nayef.

Full story here

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/jan/17/newcastle-chairman-58m-lawsuit-malicious-instructions-yasir-al-rumayyan-moahmmed-bin-salman-saudi?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

theoneeyedman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121631043#Comment_121631043

Fit and proper.....

Suvarnabhumi

Give me Klopps football, over a Guardiola borefest any day of the week.

Ottoman_1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121630758#Comment_121630758

That back 5!!!!

The Moist Buddha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633000#Comment_121633000

Sakho would have worked out well I'd say if he hadn't have acted the bollix on the San Fran trip that time. shown the door without any hesitation by Klopp shortly after. never heard what he actually did tho

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633288#Comment_121633288

Late for training, meal times and treatment apparently. Problems at his last club too. Likes of Klopp or Pep just don't tolerate that

The Moist Buddha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633326#Comment_121633326

was just reading about his antics at Montpellier, grabbed the manager by throat in training, he's gone from there too. clown

Fitz*

He was going around with a camera crew and interrupting interviews trying to act the Mickey too.

Klopp basically said you can have fun, but make sure all the work is also done first and emphasis is placed there. But the fun was placed higher for Sakho rather than work.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633326#Comment_121633326

Sakho has averaged less than 15 games a season in the last 7 and a half years since he left Liverpool.

Klopp was proved correct.

It took a while to clean up some of the mess from the Rodgers era.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633326#Comment_121633326

Then you have a few people who blamed Ten Hag for not handling Sancho properly.

No top manager tolerates players being constantly late and unprofessional. Not if they want to develop a great team anyway.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121633935#Comment_121633935

Ten Hag's problem wasn't cutting Sancho loose, it was allowing it to become such a big public furore that it made getting rid of the player so much harder. Ideally it would've been smoothed out in the short term (without the standoff over the demand for a public apology for instance), and then get him up for sale asap while he still had theoretical value.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635142#Comment_121635142

And how would it have been smoothed out?

Ten Hag made one comment about training, Sancho then made his comments on social media, so from that point how does it get smoothed out without either A. Sancho apologising or B. Ten Hag having his authority undermined?

If Sancho made those comments under Klopp or Pep and did not apologise he would never play for them again, and he would likely be gone even if he did apologise. I don't agree that Ten Hag acted any differently than they would have.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635274#Comment_121635274

Talk to the player and - with the clubs own people - find a way to move past this and part ways. Say it's being dealt with internally and offer no more than that. If the guy clearly isn't going to apologise, then you can't put yourself in the position where you've publicly demanded one, as now you're stuck with a player who is clearly demonstrating on a continuous basis that he's a prick, with a story that is by default 'ongoing', so is so much harder to get rid of given his gigantic wages. You need to allow the story to fall away, as the new news cycle comes around.

I don't think Klopp would have ever asked for any public action/response from a player. He'd have dealt with them directly. I remember Albert Riera made some comment about Rafa years ago in a Spanish interview - Rafa didn't go asking for a public apology, he simply dropped him, and sold him in the next window. At the time, this was Rafa's response when asked about it; "The timing was not the best for the team, and we will deal with this internally". And that's it - shut it down so it doesn't get to run and run - get it out of the public eye. (which of course helps if you don't make public comments about a player in the first place though, if you know they're the sort to have a sulk and go public themselves).

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635274#Comment_121635274

That's the talent of man management. Not saying ETH wasn't right but it could of been handled better.

bucketybuck

Again, what does "handled it better" actually mean.

I repeat, once Sancho made his comments there are only two options, he apologises or Ten Hag has his authority undermined.

Talking to him, finding a way to move past this, etc etc, they are all just different ways of saying that the player has the power and the manager needs to accommodate him. Needs to find a way to make it work.

And no top manager allows that to happen. Fergie wouldn't, Klopp wouldn't and Pep wouldn't. They wouldn't because it undermines their authority and destroys the dynamic between team and manager.

Fitz*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635274#Comment_121635274

Tbh, I don't think that Sancho would be acting the gowl under Pep or Klopp. He would be told once and that would be it. There wouldn't need to be multiple conversations as the dressing room would sort itself out, definitely in the case at Liverpool.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635484#Comment_121635484

No - as I said, don't demand a public apology, because then the end of the story is entirely out of your control.

Keep everything in house. Lots of players have fallen out with lots of managers, and I can't think of too many (any?) examples of demanding a public apology. There is no expectation for that to happen, because it doesn't happen, so simply stop playing him for as long as you want, and say it's all being dealt with internally.

I gave the Rafa example as a comparison - the player publicly disrespected the manager, the manager shows who's boss by his actions, dropping the player with a simple "it's being dealt with internally". Then sells them. The story is big for a week or two, then goes away.

DM_7

When did Ten Hag demand a public apology from Sancho?

Pep showed how quickly a player can be gone and out of his plans, look at Cancelo.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635561#Comment_121635561

That's what I keep seeing reported by Utd fans and journos anyway (like this line from an ESPN article "Sources have told ESPN that Ten Hag will not back down over his demand for an apology -- both in private and with a public statement"), leaving them stuck in this apology stalemate where it's been requested, and is not coming.

Cancelo is a great example of better handling alright, though there's been plenty. I don't think a manager's authority is undermined as long as they act - drop the player, don't talk about it, and move them on as soon as you can with as little talk as possible.

DM_7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635582#Comment_121635582

I understood Ten Hag wanted an apology from Sancho for his social media outburst. He took the time to show Sancho tape of exactly what he was talking about re his training. The apology was to be in private but United would make it known that the issues were sorted. Sancho refused to accept the critique of his training or offer any apology (private, public or otherwise).

Sancho was left out in September after the window closed. Sancho was left out of the squad with Ten Hag saying the player knows what he needs to do if he wants to be involved. He was loaned out in the next available window.

Personally I think Ten Hags should have said nothing in the first instance and the fall out will cost United huge money. His choices after the initial error (which was minor enough) were all sound, never said much, dropped the player with a clear route to resolution.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635537#Comment_121635537

Well Sancho was told and now he is out.

What will the next jumped up little **** do?

And thats why Ten Hag needed to do it. And its why sacking Ten Hag would be a mistake. Styles of play and results currently are of far less importance than sorting out the poisonous lack of character in that dressing room.

retalivity

Eth has plenty of faults, but dont think you can be too harsh with him in how he dealt with sancho, and ronaldo before that. Toxic players, get them out.

klose

He should be commended for it if anything else.

DM_7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121635922#Comment_121635922

At the same time he has also tried to address issues of players who are just not up to the levels needed. Some have moved on and a few others are still in the squad as he needs a squad but he seems to be helping in making those big choices. Martial and Varane for example are not getting automatic contracts extensions which would have happened in the past.

He took a huge risk saying let De Gea go, the replacement has jot been perfect, but he was right to say the club should not be signing De Gea up on another massive contract.

Liam O

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638435#Comment_121638435

Ah I think it's a bit disingenuous to say Varane and Martial would have gotten automatic extensions in the past given what they are contributing at the moment. Especially on the money they are on.

That said I'd not be against signing Varane to a more appearance based 2 year deal if he was amenable. There's still a good player there even if he is a bit too slow and maybe soft for the league at times. Probably still a good leader and someone that young players can aspire to be like. Even if he is just 30 😅

I think the biggest stick to beat ETH with is that he has signed 3 Ajax players to be his first choice players along with a few more very good players and still doesn't have a style that even looks close to being realised.

doc_17

Sancho probably not cut out for the premier league and not quite at the level needed. Neither was Sakho, a really, really bad player. Klopp didn’t need any other reason than that to get rid of him.

Ten Hag knows that the rot is with the players and if he gives an inch to any of them he’ll find himself going the same way as José, Ole and Ralf. Ten Hag can’t be faulted too much for his stance on Sancho, except signing Antony to replace him!

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640032#Comment_121640032

Sakho had the quality, just not the brain/mentality.

doc_17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640041#Comment_121640041

I really don’t think he did. In fact, I think he was rubbish! I still blame him for THAT Chelsea match. He gave away a corner right before the first goal when he tried to shield the ball out of play and made a dog’s dinner out of it. He actually reminds me a little of Wan Bissaka!

But I do realise many Liverpool supporters think he was decent.