Has President Higgins overstepped the mark?

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281209#Comment_121281209

Imagine that, you looked for an opinion you agreed with and found it!! What are the odds!

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281684#Comment_121281684

Because that's what we open the door to if we give up our neutrality.

It might not happen, but not a risk I want to take, and I think the majority of the country feels the same.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281841#Comment_121281841

Neutral countries can have conscription too. The majority of NATO countries don't have conscription. And you'd be hard pushed to find a correlation between military alliance membership and conscription.

Is war 'needless'? Well when one side doesn't have an army it is not really a war, it a massacre.

Many neutral countries have been attacked. You may not interested in war but sometimes war is interested in you.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281841#Comment_121281841

No we don't. Neutrality and conscription based armies are two completely uncorrelated phenomena.

I'm sure the majority of the country does feel the same about the completely made up scenario you have concocted though. It always helps your argument when you make up absurd edge cases to get people on board after all.

Unflushable Turd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281520#Comment_121281520

So you would be ok with Ireland being neutral, but involved in UN sanctioned missions then?

TheCitizen

The best President we’ve ever had. He is doing exactly what we voted for him to do. He’ll be a hard act to follow.

The rage he causes from some quarters is an added bonus.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121277222#Comment_121277222

I take it you didn’t vote for him. LOL

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121279706#Comment_121279706

It seems the thread has increasingly become about you and your crusade against our very popular President. Carry on, you’re working wonders on maintaining that popularity.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281845#Comment_121281845

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281863#Comment_121281863

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281848#Comment_121281848

Jaysus ye lot are tiresome.

The vast majority of the people in this country want us to maintain our neutrality.

Whether Micky D is constitutionally correct to support that doesn't matter to me. He is morally correct.

This push to militarize is quite clearly linked to protecting IT infrastructure. FFG are doing their best to sneak it in the back door, but if they do I suspect it'll be very strongly held against them come future elections.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121281970#Comment_121281970

Less tiresome than conspiracy theories. One does not generally "sneak things in the back door" via well publicised and open policy forums. Nor would altering our neutrality standpoint result in Irish conscripts heading off to foreign shores. Nor is our (rather fuzzy) neutrality under threat anyway.

Whether what the president does is constitutionally correct is in fact rather important.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282274#Comment_121282274

Why the clamour to change our status? Must be something behind it.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282587#Comment_121282587

Everyone should be open to re-examining our approach to foreign affairs and defence on a reasonably regular basis. The world changes.

I would argue that giving Putin and Xi a veto on where we can deploy troops is no longer viable given their retreat from the "rules based order" that we are committed to. However, regardless of the outcome, the shrill response to the discussion even taking place was fairly unbecoming of the President.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282587#Comment_121282587

Sweden and Finland were neutral countries of long standing, all through the Cold War, and are fellow EU member states, with far more defence capabilities than us... and yet - they decided to join NATO. Why did they change their status?

So now, in the EU, we are left with landlocked Austria and tiny Malta as the only other neutrals.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282627#Comment_121282627

Youve just given a reason not to change our status. I heard Diarmaid Ferriter talk about this, he said the chair of the discussion that was appointed was inappropriate. FFG making a botch of the job. Higgins is probably right to be circumspect. The rest of us probably wouldn’t be thinking too much about it which is what FFG want no doubt.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282663#Comment_121282663

So we should change our status because Sweden and Finland did? Why not maintain it like Austria and Malta?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282816#Comment_121282816

That wasn't the question you asked, and literally nobody said that. Well, who said it and when?

The question you asked was why we are considering changing our status.

And it was put to you, why do you think Sweden and Finland changed their status?

And what is wrong with Ireland, taking stock of the new world situation, and reflecting on the same changes that led to changes in other EU neutral countries? And assessing our status and defence capabilities?

And our President imo blatantly violated the spirit of the constitution in 'addressing the nation' on such topics without government clearance. Whether he violated the letter of it I'll leave to the lawyers to argue the toss over. He has acted without integrity in this matter as is demonstrated by his scurrilous attack on the chair for which he had to give a mealy mouthed apology - a man of integrity would have resigned for such unbecoming conduct. If he had a shred of integrity he would resign and then he can pontificate to his heart's content, instead of abusing his office and bringing it into disrepute.

A thundering disgrace.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282797#Comment_121282797

Don't really understand your first point at all to be honest, but regardless it's not an argument against the a consultative forum. I don't really see why the chair was inappropriate either.

Anyway, the forum hasn't recommended we abandon our neutrality (nor was that its role anyway), though it has made the perfectly valid point that it is not a well defined policy and not backed up by anything. So Higgins was incredibly wrong to be circumspect and did so in a fairly unprofessional manner - for which he had to apologise, even if he did so in a half-hearted manner.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282663#Comment_121282663

I'd imagine them sharing a border with Russia (in Sweden's case a maritime border) played a significant part in their decision.

Thankfully we're not in that situation.

The only thing that might make us now a target is IT infrastructure. I don't believe providing security for Amazon and Microsoft's assets has much support in this country, despite it being where FFG want to take us.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282829#Comment_121282829

I think the issue that Ferriter and Michael D Higgins have with this discussion is how it is being framed and I’d be more trustworthy of their views on it.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282945#Comment_121282945

MDH views on this are demonstrably untrustworthy and lacking integrity as proven by him resorting to scurrilous personal attacks. Lack of integrity both to his office and to the truth.

Easy for Ferriter to hurl from the ditch, it is up to the elected Government of the day to prepare the country for challenges it sees ahead.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282955#Comment_121282955

I disagree, there is nothing demonstrably untrustworthy about Higgins views on this. I trust Higgins implacably and would trust Ferriter more on this than FFG. It’s healthy to subject this forum to severe scrutiny.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282915#Comment_121282915

We are not landlocked, there is open sea between us and Russia.

"I don't believe providing security for Amazon and Microsoft's assets has much support in this country."

Was a bizarre and prejudicial framing.

That infrastructure underpins the economic structure of the State, and if there's "not much support" that is because they haven't thought through the consequences to the country of losing such assets.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121282864#Comment_121282864

He had to apologise to suit political correctness but he was right to question why do we have a Dame of the British Empire chairing a conference on Irish neutrality. That’s not an anti British comment by the way, it’s a comment regarding who we should appoint to chair a discussion re our neutrality. A stupid appointment in my view, it’s important to get the framework on discussions like this correct.

So what did it recommend exactly? It was an effort perhaps to begin a process of undermining Ireland’s neutrality and thanks to some vigilance from Higgins and Ferriter they may have wound their neck in on it. They need to be watched.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283051#Comment_121283051

There you go, repeating the same scurrilous attack on the chair.

The person you are abusing without merit or foundation is an Irish political scientist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Richardson

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283035#Comment_121283035

A lot of open sea!

And why would they come here other than for this IT infrastructure?

I don't think we'll lose out if this infrastructure were to be moved elsewhere, or private security provided.

We'd still have plenty of competitive advantage as an EU destination for tech investment.

Only a very small few specialized firms benefit from being located so near to trans-Atlantic cables.

There potential loss would be far less expensive that the type of military investment required to see off Russian threats.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283067#Comment_121283067

You don't think we'd lose out if it's established we're not a safe location for multinationals?

Multiple statements without foundation.

These are the kind of questions it is entirely valid for Governments to consider, whether more defence spending and alliances are needed adjust such potential threats, especially in a situation where we are an EU member state sanctioning Russia.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283085#Comment_121283085

How did you jump to 'not safe for multinationals'?

Are you aware of some military threat to multinationals in general? Please share!

There's been multinationals here for years, I'm only seeing this push to militarize now that the IT infrastructure is here.

My many years working in IT tells me that being physically close to this infrastructure is only important for a handful of companies.

Given the environmental and resource cost of having this infrastructure here, there may well be all sorts of investment deals teeing it's presence here to other investment and jobs. If that is the case why not inform the public and make it part of the decision making process around our neutrality?

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283062#Comment_121283062

I’m not abusing anyone and perhaps someone like her could be a very good contributor.

However the chair of a forum regarding Irish security should not be someone with allegiance to another country in my view. A poor choice that would set alarm bells ringing re the thought process behind the whole thing.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283180#Comment_121283180

I'm quite skeptical of putting too much trust in this style of forum in general.

Imho it reeks of the corporatist approach that got us into so much trouble in the last crash.

https://ecpr.eu/Events/Event/PaperDetails/9708

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283051#Comment_121283051

He had to apologise because it was a buffoonish comment.

Also, a "Dame of the British Empire" is just a recognition of her work and how they do that in the UK. You may as well decide that anyone with a Nobel Prize is not sufficiently neutral or devoted to Ireland to have a view.

Richardson was appointed Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire (DBE) in the 2022 Birthday Honours for attracting more undergraduates from disadvantaged backgrounds to University of Oxford and to University of St Andrews, and for securing the partnership with AstraZeneca for the production and distribution of the COVID-19 vaccine developed at University of Oxford.[140]

This does not mean she bears any allegiance to the UK, as MDH full well knows, and yet it didn't stop him deliberately referencing the British Empire to try and undermine her. It was beneath him and his station to do so, and that is why he apologised.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283145#Comment_121283145

No jump. You name checked major tech multinationals yourself and our economy is highly dependent on them.

And to imagine such an attack would not cause ripples of concern to other multinationals is without foundation.

The risks of, impact of, how to mitigate - all of these are entirely legitimate questions for Government - not the President - to consider.

Beechwoodspark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121279724#Comment_121279724

Read the Stephen Collins articles if you won’t take heed of my posts. Thanks.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121273355#Comment_121273355

He's very popular. I think his elderly, sage, poetic, intellectual man with his hand on the pulse of the nation facade is generally accepted.

I'm not one of them, I didn't mind him the first few years. Remaining too long in office isn't good for anyone I feel. You end up with a democracy where some get used to privilege and ego inflates.

rdhma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283067#Comment_121283067

Private security? A corporate marine patrol force run by mercenaries? Amazon aircraft carrier, Facebook attack aircraft etc?

Can you point to an analysis of those 'minimal' costs of losing transatlantic corporate communications? I'd love to read it.

TheCitizen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283283#Comment_121283283

He had to apologise because of political correctness. It was not a “buffoonish”comment. It was accurate, she was a poor choice for the role of chair of that forum and seriously called into question the judgment of those organising it. A poor, poor call.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283572#Comment_121283572

I've been reading Stephen's articles for years.

Some I agree with others I don't.

That's how opinion writers work.

They are worth reading but they are not necessarily the oracle.

You read them and make your own mind up.

It's part of what makes the Irish Times worth subscribing to.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283572#Comment_121283572

Stephen Collins articles don't vindicate your personalised comments or prove you correct about his general popularity.

His articles do have something worth considering.

Your comments don't merit any serious consideration given their resorts to personalised attacks about the Presidents image, age, abilities, wife, intellect, personality etc and they absolutely have no basis in fact regarding the feelings of the majority of Irish people.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283576#Comment_121283576

I'm talking about my experience working in the industry. There's no technical reason for the vast majority of tech companies to be located so physically close to transatlantic cables or data centers.

Besides I'm arguing for maintaining the status quo (or neutrality). If it's the case you're advocating an increase in military spending to protect jobs and the economy, I'd think the onus is on you to quantify it?

Podge_irl

Ireland's current military readiness isn't the status quo, it has degraded over the last decade.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283312#Comment_121283312

It does seem our neutrality is sadly the remit of the current government.

I believe some iteration of FFG had fairly recently promised to put it to a referendum and have it established in the constitution but failed to do so.

I'm quite confident that the electorate will strongly hold it against them if they militarize though.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284088#Comment_121284088

I don't remember that promise?😕

We're a very long way away from Higgins and his output now...but will say again that putting such things (I am guessing you mean that "Triple Lock") in the Constitution is nuts imo.

It is just as silly as placing bans on abortion in there, and would be done for same reason i.e. so a bunch of people with very rigid views (this time on left side of the spectrum) who are afraid of any change can get their way and lock it down.

If my memory is not failing me, it is why the Church and very staunch Catholics pushed for anti-abortion stuff to be shoehorned in there in the 80s, they could smell change coming on the wind and were probably afraid.

edit: On "militarisation", if we ever have the bad luck to need defence/security investments we have not made, and we find that others can't help with the problem, well the same electorate probably will blame the poor sad-sack govt. of the day that is left holding the bag for it!

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284151#Comment_121284151

It's going back to 1994 when there was a pledge by FG not to change our policy on neutrality without a referendum.

Somewhere around 2016 a joint committee reported that

The Joint Committee note the lacuna between what is understood by the citizens by neutrality and what is the de facto position. Accordingly, the Joint Committee recommend that the Dáil and Seanad debate the matter of neutrality with a view to the holding of a Referendum so that the will of the people can be determined.

As for winds of change I don't see it, to me it looks like there's been consistently strong support for our neutrality.

Beechwoodspark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121283929#Comment_121283929

I have said all I have to say on the subject.

Whatever about his appearance, his very strange utterly contrived persona is absolutely “fair game”.

He and the wife are like surreal comedic characters straight out of “Father Ted”.

This is the president of Ireland we are talking about!

My central criticism is summed up by the letter I quoted yesterday:

”The President does not speak for the Irish people when he expresses his particular political beliefs and ideologies; he speaks for some of the Irish people. And therein lies the problem. He holds the office of ceremonial position where he is indeed supposed to represent the Irish people in an apolitical manner.

By continuously voicing his particular political views, he alienates many Irish people who disagree with his politics and views.

The place for partisan politics and discussing different political views and philosophies is the Dáil. It is not in the Áras.”

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284000#Comment_121284000

Indeed, we are now in the position of not being able to put to sea to do basic things like patrolling our seas. As a result foreign fishing vessels are hoovering up all the fish without any oversight.

We are currently struggling to find enough troops to fulfil our UNIFIL role Lebanon according to last Friday's Irish Times. Or that the defence forces are ceasing training Maltese officers due to the staffing crisis.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/10/20/defence-forces-struggle-to-find-enough-troops-for-lebanon-deployment/

https://headtopics.com/ie/defence-forces-to-cease-training-maltese-officers-due-to-staffing-crisis-46948014

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285506#Comment_121285506

You don't really have a criticism that is worth validly considering when you fling about all the personalised comments. Your comments about his popularity have no basis in fact.

Beechwoodspark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285817#Comment_121285817

Read my post again. Ignore the para about his contrived persona, if that’s what you wish to dismiss.

I can tell you it is not dismissed by society though, regardless of your protestations.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285817#Comment_121285817

I think he sums up the President's behaviour very well. Below is succinct.

”The President does not speak for the Irish people when he expresses his particular political beliefs and ideologies; he speaks for some of the Irish people. And therein lies the problem. He holds the office of ceremonial position where he is indeed supposed to represent the Irish people in an apolitical manner.''

Gloomtastic!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285817#Comment_121285817

Yes they do. Higgins has never got a vote from me and his attitude since taking office has only reinforced that view.

I posted here originally lambasting his fourth private audience with the pope yet he spouts about injustices around the world that don’t fit into his viewpoint. What a hypocrite! 🤬

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284231#Comment_121284231

I did not know that thanks, but sentence quoted does not say to have a referendum to set the current situation in stone in the constitution (or not). There's all kinds of referendums that could be held on this issue to determine the "people's will". The "change on the wind" I was thinking of is the insecure world we are heading into, biggest sign of which is the situation in Europe. I don't think what happened in Ukraine will be an outlier, am pessimistic it is a harbinger of what is to come.

Forcing the 1980s abortion analogy a bit, the public opinion in Ireland was not changing massively then, but things were happening outside (abortion being freed up in other countries).

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287564#Comment_121287564

When was it decided you repeesent all Irish people.