all steps should have the same rise?

playitagainsam

Hi,

The technical regulations state that "all steps should have the same rise". Does anyone know if this is true of all steps, even steps that come before and after a landing? In other words does the landing reset the rise level? Also does anyone know what the tolerance allowed is?

Background: We have precast stairs with a quarter landing. Each rise is 200mm. However the floor level needs to be raised about 25mm to prevent trip hazard at door threshold. If we do nothing then the first step rise would be 175mm and all other would be 200mm.

Mellor

Yes, All steps means all steps. The language of these documents is generally literal. They say exactly what is intended. It is usually more clear is you consider it in the the context of full sentences of paragraphs. The full sentence you refer to says

1.1.4 In any stairs –

(b) all steps should have the same rise...

That applies to each stairs in it's entirety. It it meant to apply separately to each section between landings, it would have said flight, not stairs.

Normal construction tolerance is allowable.

Background: We have precast stairs with a quarter landing. Each rise is 200mm. However the floor level needs to be raised about 25mm to prevent trip hazard at door threshold. If we do nothing then the first step rise would be 175mm and all other would be 200mm.

That will be non compliant imo. The first rise (and the last rise) should be adjusted to allow for floor finishes. Is the stair fabricated yet?

playitagainsam

Is the stair fabricated yet?

Yes, already in place. Not sure how to resolve this. On the one hand we cannot have a trip hazard at the door but on the other hand the stair rises should be equal.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120767370#Comment_120767370

What did the construction details show at the threshold and foot of the stair? If something has been built incorrectly, that would be your recourse. If it was designed incorrectly, that would be another angle.

Has the stair got no allowance for a floor finish at all? If that was the case, you may need rethink your floor finish.

playitagainsam

If only there was a detailed design that was followed. The one of housing builds leaves a lot to be desired. I will try to engage the engineer. Thanks for your feedback!

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120766028#Comment_120766028

Oddly, UK regs state only "flights" must have the same rise, so it's hardly dangerous.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/8393/2077370.pdf

Section 1.1 and 1.2

FJMC

The Technical Guidance Document is just one way of achieving compliance with Building Regulations - complying with a British / Irish Standard may also be sufficient - depending on whether it references flights, stairs, etc.

Difficult to comment on the situation without knowing the full details - how many risers, relative position of landing, etc.

If there was only a nominal difference in the risers between different flights - a few mill - that may be acceptable - if it was a significant difference it could make the stairs potentially unsafe.

Can you use the stairs and accommodate the difference in your various floor finishes?

Can you tilt the stairs and accommodate the difference in floor finishes - depending on your flights there would potentially only be a 2-3mm difference in level between front of tread and back of tread - again you could accommodate that with levellers and/or floor finish.

F

chooseusername

Changing the rise, ie adding to the thichness of the threads of the lower flight to accomodate the 25mm might be the safest and eassiest way.

My fag-box calculations; for example if there are 4 risers to the landing 200mm each.

The new risers will be 194mm, so the bottom 3 threads are thickened by 20mm, 15mm and 10mm each.

I dont know if a difference of 5 or 6 mm is acceptable above and below the landing, it appears it is in the UK

Edit;

the 20, 15 and 10mm are a bit out, I'll have another go later when I've time.

efit again; should be 19, 13 and 7mm,

So a sheet of 6mm hardboard , one on third step, 2 on 2nd step and 3 on bottom step gives you 194mm risers below the landding and 200 above

sydthebeat

im more interested in the "However the floor level needs to be raised about 25mm to prevent trip hazard at door threshold" aspect of this query.

are we talking about teh physical metal threshold slip at the door? can you explain more please?

i cant fathom at all how the solution to a door threshold issue is resulting in raising the whole of the ground floor by 25mm, thus the subsequent issue with the stairs. Is it impossible to (1) drop the door? (2) remove or somehow resolve the threshold issue as part of the mechanism of the door or even (3) hide the 25mm in a slope up to the door

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120773120#Comment_120773120

Is there no design? There may be a typo, as I don't follow "The one of housing builds".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775749#Comment_120775749

True, but they also have other requirements that don't apply in Ireland. Hard to be aligned on every issue.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120776578#Comment_120776578

The TGDs are only one method. But a step that deviates by 25mm is a big deviation. Splitting it over a number might be acceptable, if there were enough steps to split over.

I share Syds view, I'm curious how we got here and how the door and stair details are so misaligned. Fixing the door might be easier.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120777923#Comment_120777923

"Is there no design? There may be a typo, as I don't follow "The one-off housing builds".

playitagainsam

i cant fathom at all how the solution to a door threshold issue is resulting in raising the whole of the ground floor by 25mm, thus the subsequent issue with the stairs. Is it impossible to (1) drop the door? (2) remove or somehow resolve the threshold issue as part of the mechanism of the door or even (3) hide the 25mm in a slope up to the door

Is it impossible to drop the door?

The door has two large windows either side of it and those three components are installed in one large frame. There is also a large keystone lintel installed over this section. I suppose we could get the window company back, take the frame out, adjust the installation height and reinstall...but I just figured that would cost way more.

hide the 25mm in a slope up to the door

I was considering this option....definitely the cheapest. But I think it would look awful? Also it probably limits the the floor covering you could use.

AidanParkes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780361#Comment_120780361

I think it will really cost more, but not much. Best play it safe

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120778031#Comment_120778031

Still not really clear what OP is saying, a bit muddled grammatically.

But regardless, if there a one off house being built, then there is a design. If that design has such gaping holes in it, I'd be asking why

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780361#Comment_120780361

How about raised door mat inside the door, which splits the difference between the 25mm height issue?

playitagainsam

How about raised door mat inside the door, which splits the difference between the 25mm height issue?

I think anything over 10mm is considered a trip hazard....so with a mat you would still be left with 12.5mm. But it sure is the easiest and cheapest solution by far. But ugh, I think it's too much to bridge with a mat.

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120784789#Comment_120784789

But why wont you say what this trip hazard is?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120784789#Comment_120784789

youre allowed 15mm of a threshold upstand

so really have you only 10mm to worry about?

playitagainsam

But why wont you say what this trip hazard is?

Sorry, I thought it was clear. The trip hazard would occur as you exit outside via the front door. This is because the finished floor height would be 25mm lower than the door threshold.

so really have you only 10mm to worry about?

That's true. But, in addition, I'd prefer to have an almost flush finish between the floor and the door threshold.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120789043#Comment_120789043

You can't have it flush, you need an upstand as a weather break.

Could you take a pic of the issue because I'm starting to think this is a wind up

playitagainsam

You can't have it flush, you need an upstand as a weather break.

This, https://detail-library.co.uk/technical-study-level-threshold-detailing/, is what I am looking to achieve. "A threshold that is level or, if raised, has a total height of not more than 15mm"

Could you take a pic of the issue because I'm starting to think this is a wind up

A wind up? Really. I am not onsite at the moment, but I will take a picture and update this thread with it.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791520#Comment_120791520

apologies, didnt mean to cause offense, but its been difficult to determine what exactly the issue is here.

in the link that youve posted above the 15mm dimension refers to the metalic weather "threshold"

like this (see red arrows):

so are you saying that:

1. the levels inside and outside are equal but this metallic strip is 25mm high and thus a trip hazard?
2. the ground level outside is flush with the top of this strip and thus theres a 25mm drop down into the house?
3. the ground level outside is 10mm higher than the internal floor level, thus theres a 25mm from the internal floor level to the top of this strip?

thats why i think a few photos of the issue will be more descriptive.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791520#Comment_120791520

The level difference across that detail is 25mm, fyi.

10mm difference External to internal. And 15mm max Internal to weather strip. It's not a great detail imo, the fuzzy line hides the fact that it is 25mm externally at the threshold.

It might be easiest if you provide a your door threshold drawing, or shop drawing. Or confirm the levels.

External FGL, Internal FFL and/or SSL, and door threshold above these levels.

playitagainsam

Front door threshold picture

The height from the screed to the top of the black frame section is ~25mm

sydthebeat

What's the height from the screed to the top of the threshold?

playitagainsam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120856837#Comment_120856837

To the the top of the black frame is ~25mm. The silver section is about another 1cm. The goal here was to reduce trip hazard for elderly. I though if we finish the internal floor as close as possible to the to the top of the black frame that's as good as we can do.

chooseusername

Has the stairs been fitted raised to allow for a finished floor level?

playitagainsam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120857272#Comment_120857272

That's the problem. These different levels were not considered. I should have been more involved.

sydthebeat

personally...

i put down a 20mm floor finish and accept the 180mm step at the first step as unavoidable. Put it down to a lesson learned.

DOCARCH

Are there finishes going on the stairs/first floor landing (like carpet or timber flooring)?

If there are, there should really be no/minimal issue, as all levels will rise.