Tour de France 2023 ***spoilers*** Warning in OP

YakerK

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800472#Comment_120800472

So did Philipson, to me they were very similar, started on his lead out man's wheel on the left centre of the road and moved to the right barrier.

Only difference to me was in Sam's case Groenewegen was quite far behind him so Sam wouldn't have physically pushed him into the barrier (he definitely cut him off though - I'm not disputing that). WvA was right on Philipson's elbow and was almost pushed into the barrier, so to me Philipson had absolutely no excuse as he should have known WvA was there.

To me, consistent (and reasonable) treatment was relegation in both cases. If I'm ranking I think Philipson's move was slightly worse than Sam's.

https://www.stickybottle.com/races-results/philipsen-squeezes-out-van-aert-to-win-hectic-sprint-stage-on-tour-video/

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/cycling/2023/06/06/sam-bennett-second-in-france-as-laporte-wins-stage-three-of-criterium-du-dauphine/

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800402#Comment_120800402

The sam one was far worse he went from one side to other nearly.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799706#Comment_120799706

I have listened to about four/five of his podcast, all in relation to performance of elite athletes in relation to fueling, hydration, fat metabolism, running shoes and a rather brilliant one in relation to young athletes and competition and elite selection for a given sport.

The podcast I linked included a discussion ( in wake of recent fatality) on how to make pro cycling safer; his discussion in a rambling way was to me the very essence of the inquisitive scientific mind. How dangerous is pro cycling per km, when are crashes happening, what are the risk factors, is increased speed from later braking (disc brakes) or aero bikes causing problems etc etc

He calls bulls1hit on Thomas's claim the bicarb was the source of his TT performance issue

His discussion on head trauma and concussion was also a similar discussion; there was no dogma or appeal to authority.

World rugby on two key safety related topics seem to have faith in his input.

The need to dismiss a person's opinion(or God help us name calling), especially in his/her specialised field, because you disagree with their opinion on some other subject is the very essence of the problem with modern, especially online, discourse. It's a weakness of character not to be able to agree with someone's rational argument because you disagree them on some other topic or dislike them. Tucker actually makes that point in linked podcast in relation to Armstrong.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800680#Comment_120800680

Completely agree, Jasper did nothing wrong

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800688#Comment_120800688

Nothing got to do with the Tour de France though. So probably a conversation for a different thread.

lawrencesummers

WVA is gonna lose the rag someday soon if this keeps happening, hopefully he takes it out on the peloton some day soon and gives us a load of entertainment. He wont be happy not winning a stage by now!

lawrencesummers

Lafay will surely try the same trick tomo to get some points in green If we dont see a larger breakaway forming early.

eagle eye

Stage 4

Another sprint stage and Phillipsen has to start favourite for it with how he was delivered and how he finished it off. All the usuals will be fancied to contend and I'm picking one of them.

Fabio Jakobsen got cut off from his lead out man and fell back. He ended up finishing fourth and looked really strong at the line.

Phillipsen has a great train but I think Fabio will have learned from today and will be in a better position to challenge for the stage win tomorrow.

Special thanks to mefistelino for correcting me as I thought it was Welsford who finished fourth and he corrected me.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120801585#Comment_120801585

Developing a bit of a reputation as a runner up.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800362#Comment_120800362

Yep

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800402#Comment_120800402

Hard to tell from the camera angles but Sams looked more dramatic from memory and was over half the roadway. I did think it was a deviation yesterday but it was muddied by the bends in the barriers. I await a Lanterne Rouge analysis as he normally gets far better camera angles for the original sources

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800688#Comment_120800688

I didn't disagree with his points, I acknowledged that he was very knowledgeable unfortunately some of his talks have went away from the scientific rationale on one or two subjects. One in so far he became inconsistent with himself (which as a scientist is quite normal in regards interpretation, and is a sign of a good scientist) and unfortunately it was hard to listen too. I am not dismissing his opinion in this area, I simply pointed out I don't bother listening to him anymore as the last few times he has come up it descended into a "this is the only parameter that matters", which was completely at odds with his own view on a subject matter only a few months previously where he pointed out that every sport was different, multi faceted and required in depth analysis tailored to every sport. I first started listening to him as a sports scientist and as a fan of rugby and I found it nice to hear a "these are the facts, I am not saying do a, b or c but you asked me to look at the data and provide ideas that have backing to make things safer, this is what on paper does that, people may or may not like that". What you posted maybe brilliant, I simply did not listen to it due to time constraints and experience teaching me that I am sure it has all been said before.

YakerK

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802447#Comment_120802447

Maybe the bends in the road made the difference which isn't clear from the angle, but Philipson also clearly moved across over half the roadway also, he started much closer to the left barrier than the right and then almost ran WvA into the right barrier. I fail to see much difference between the two incidents.

If the bend in the road means that the "straight line" to the finish line was actually by changing road position, I see how that's more complicated, no surprise at UCI allowing dangerous finishes, but ultimately the responsibility of riders not to cut others off.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802513#Comment_120802513

You are massively exaggerating where he was when he started his sprint.

He was closer to the left behind his lead out but then popped round him on the right which is perfectly fine. He never cut WvA off and when he does swing over at the end WvA has long since stopped because he wasn't strong enough to pass earlier and was having a sulk and blaming people.

WvA took the cycling version of a dive.

Macy0161

Sneak watched the last 5km in office, and then had to get back to work. I was a bit surprised when I watched the ITV highlights on +1 that there was even any question on the sprint to be honest. It was the barriers that came in rather than any deviation - the fact that WvA had no complaints immediately is telling. It looked clean to me live. I think equating to Sam's is a bit green tinted glasses really.

tbh I didn't see the WvA "sulk" or "dive" - I thought he sat up as he wasn't prepared to take the risk* (where as a "pure" sprinter only capable of sprint wins would've). WvA has bigger fish to fry, both personally and for the team.

*note to all us amateurs with day jobs!

Macy0161

The need to dismiss a person's opinion(or God help us name calling), especially in his/her specialised field, because you disagree with their opinion on some other subject is the very essence of the problem with modern, especially online, discourse. It's a weakness of character not to be able to agree with someone's rational argument because you disagree them on some other topic or dislike them. Tucker actually makes that point in linked podcast in relation to Armstrong.

To be fair to myself, I have been a long time subscriber to that podcast. imo it trys to cover too much, and I don't think he has the (current) research done to justify his opinion on some sports, and most relevant to me that includes cycling now. His take is they must be doping because of the speeds. I'm not saying they are not, but I expect/ need more science than that. There's been so many advances in nutrition, training, knowledge of altitude etc. that he just seems to dismiss.

I don't know, maybe I'm expecting something from it that it's not trying to be.

breezy1985

Lads can we just stop with this Podcast. It doesn't even cover the Tour and I'm sick to death of anything coming even remotely close to CA/IMHO bullsht which this clearly is.

YakerK

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802537#Comment_120802537

I'm not exaggerating- 3 screenshots, just before he launched, after he launched and just after WvA stoped his sprint - you can't say he didn't move 75% the way across the road because that's exactly what he did. Exactly as Sam did in the other sprint. Maybe the bend in the road is a compensating factor in this case, but the end result is the same, another sprinter is cut off.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802780#Comment_120802780

Bennett done it way after launching from the lead out. That's one of the big differences here as going left or right off your lead out would be expected. Also going for the barriers would be expected.

It's different to the wild swings Bennett was taking and I can't understand why everyone is concerned so much with comparisons to that race. There have been tons of other far more similar sprints to compare to.

lawrencesummers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802780#Comment_120802780

You need to see angles from behind or above further to tell if he is taking the shortest route to the line or not, going across is not in itself a problem and your kind of basing your argument on it being a straight road with hoardings running 90Degrees to the finish line which its not.

Todays sprint is on a track of some sort apparently which should have a near dead straight last 200m and any sideways movement would be different

jonnreeks

Just curious, what Irish riders are in the Tour, if any please. I try to watch the highlights of each day when possible, love the racing and the scenery!

Squidgy Black

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802932#Comment_120802932

None unfortunately

Macy0161

Maybe the bend in the road is a compensating factor in this case, but the end result is the same, another sprinter is cut off.

It was mention on one of the podcasts (lantern rouge?) that the rule is straight line to the finish or something similar. So the bend is a major compensating factor. Essentially, the rule isn't that you have to keep the same distance from the edge of the road, you just shouldn't deviate from you line to the finish line. I think it's pretty clear he went straight, and the road/ barriers came in. They also mentioned that the rules say organisers "should" avoid bends in the final.

Dodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802932#Comment_120802932

None

Chris Juul Jensen was born here but he’s proudly Danish

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802932#Comment_120802932

Eddie Dunbar (Team Jayco) and Ben Healy (Team EF Education) rode the Giro d'Italia in the spring and did well.

The teams they ride for would not be top teams so all things being equal if it's a breakaway and there's a bunch of riders I'll hope someone from those teams wins it. It's not an exact science though.

Teams get UCI points (and glory) for winning stages and places in the cycling competitions that happen over the year. Every couple of years there's a sort of promotion \ relegation for the team with the lowest number of points. They can affect whether will be able to race in the biggest competitions.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802537#Comment_120802537

Although I agree Philipsen did nothing wrong. Wout definitely did nothing wrong as well. He was boxed in and gave up. He didn’t complain after and he was hit on the shoulder with a phone some idiot held in his line.

I saw nothing about Wout complaining, am I wrong?

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802780#Comment_120802780

Watch it in real time. These stills mean nothing.

Dodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120803109#Comment_120803109

He did his usual frustrated “half thump” at the finish line. Didn’t gesture to anyone. No big deal. Half the sprinters do it every sprint

I’m with you on the overall point. Good sprint by Philipsen, WVA unlucky with the barrier. Once he’s checked, he’s not winning so no big deal that he didn’t try everything for 3rd or whatever

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120803109#Comment_120803109

It could be me that was wrong about the complaints.

I thought he was throwing his hands around in the usual "blocked" gestures.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120803168#Comment_120803168

He didn't lift his hands off the bars, at least before the finish. Any of the pure sprinters would've got their elbows out and made room I'd say, he just wasn't taking the risk. Incidentally, some amazing bike handling in the run in keeping it upright after touches of wheels - it was fairly close to a big one a couple of times!