Tour de France 2023 ***spoilers*** Warning in OP

dahat

It’s very hard to take today at face value given the gaps to WVA. Either that or it’s the greatest TT performance ever. 👀🤷

Girly Gal

I think what's really hard to fathom is that Pogacar actually destroyed the field and yet was almost caught on the road. I felt JV would gain some time today maybe 30 seconds, but, almost a min and 40 seconds, that's insane, especially when Pogacar didn't collapse. It just doesn't sit right, I think even the commentators were astonished and possibly thinking what most are thinking right now.

Dcully

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867612#Comment_120867612

WVA is not a pure climber, this was climbers TT.

walshb

Am I right in thinking that JV took a kilometer or thereabouts off Pog?

dahat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867629#Comment_120867629

It still doesn’t sit right at all & saying it’s a climbers TT doesn’t make it any easier to a accept.

griffin100

It looks like Adam Yates has pushed Rodriguez off the podium by 5 seconds. That battle will probably be the most entertaining one for the final week.

Dcully

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867647#Comment_120867647

Accept what?

The best climber in the world won a climbers TT , himself and Pog have shown they are on another planet to the rest of the pro peleton.

Its almost exactly as i expected it to be totally honest 1,2,3 Ving,Pog and maybe a TT powerhouse like a WVA or maybe Kung, Cavanga etc.

I wasnt expecting such a margin between Ving and Pog to be fair but Ving in the last stage showed he was stronger by literally sitting down and staying with Pog as he put in one of his explosive out of the saddle all in sprints to try distance him.

G1032

JV went too far today. Crossed the line. Hard to know what they were thinking. Ridiculous what went on there today

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867629#Comment_120867629

WVA is an absolute animal on any terrain. Look at the split times, he was destroying one of the best in the business even on the flatter sections.

Macy0161

Look its professional sport, so nothing would suprise me but even earlier today people were fancying pog as a better time trialist than Jonas, which just wasn't really backed up.

I wouldn't have thought the course really suited wva either. And it was a clear tactically feck up by uae changing bikes (15-20 seconds on the change, plus from the top to finish).

So we've gone from 2 miles better than everyone else, to the popular one making poor choices and one having a super day so therefore dodgy?

Dcully

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867694#Comment_120867694

LOOOOOOOL

Dcully

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867695#Comment_120867695

I know full well that WVA is an animal, hes easily my favourite rider of them all but look back at last years ITT in the tour, WVA was literally gifted the win by Ving as has been recongnized by both men numerous times since.

dahat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867684#Comment_120867684

It’s the margin that creates suspicion, maybe Podj is ill? Maybe it creates doubt on the performance in other aspects of pushing boundaries.

He destroyed him full stop & no one expected that being honest.

Dcully

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867724#Comment_120867724

I hear ya, the margin is bigger than expected but Pog did seem to be starting to suffer the end of week 2.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867713#Comment_120867713

I can fully accept Ving winning today's stage. What's I'm finding really hard to wrap my head around is the gap he won it by. Winning by 10/20/30 seconds would have been a phenomenal performance, week 3 in the tour, and nobody would have batted an eyelid.

griffin100

I would look at today's stage in the same way I do at Froome's Stage 19 of the 2018 Giro and Nibali's comeback at the 2016 Giro. Just good old fashioned sports entertainment as they used to say in the WWF.

Dcully

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867782#Comment_120867782

Agreed but on the TT bike topic, i read Dan Martin on twitter during the week say Pog training on a TT bike only while recovering from broken wrist could be a big help for the TT.

Hard to say for sure either way but an interesting point from Dan.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867782#Comment_120867782

It's not the same as 2020.

Rog popped on Belles Filles and finished 25" behind WvA for 5th.

Pog today blitzed everyone and had a great TT and still got destroyed himself.

Girly Gal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867761#Comment_120867761

Roglic clearly collapsed under the weight of expectation that day, while it was a remarkable result, some was down to Roglic falling apart, which was quite sad to watch at the time.

Pogacar didn't fall apart today, it just felt that way because JV was so far ahead, I thought at one point Pogacar had collapsed and fallen behind WvA, but, he was well over a minute ahead of him. Some of the narrative afterwards was that Pogacar failed, but, he didn't, JV's performance was just out of this world. No one could have predicted that margin before the race.

happytramp

I suppose on a climb if Jonas won and finished 1.40 ahead of pog in 2nd we probably wouldn't be too surprised.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867782#Comment_120867782

How many times does it have to be said that Pog smashed it? He did an incredible TT and finished well behind the winner.

Mefistofelino

Lost in all this is that Mads Pedersen finished 9th, not even a minute down on WVA. Something for everyone in the audience in that top 10 - climbers, GT winners, TTers and sprinters.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867782#Comment_120867782

Pog more popular than Jonas too, just to add to that as well as the spectacle.

Big thing for me wasn't really the climbing or the flat, Jonas absolutely nailed the descents, on the aero bars (enough that I was fearing he'd over cook it). It didn't seem that Pog was as fast on the downhills. And I was actually surprised how (relatively) flat it was from the top of the climb - just makes the bike change decision even worse, and he wasn't even as aero as he could've been on the road bike.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867782#Comment_120867782

Of course it's possible, anything is possible really. The 2020 ITT win over Dumoulin was another hilly day with a categorised climb on it as well and much longer at just under 40km. Rog also cracked that day and had a disastrous bike change and looked all over the place on the road. Again, Ving winning isn't a surprise, the margin is.

I'd say it's a certainty that Pogs wrist means he wasn't as fluid on the TT bike as he would normally be but he still put in one hell of a ride.

I'll also say I really like both riders. They had a great battle last year and showed nothing but respect to each other during and since then. The last two years have been some of the best racing we've seen in years and this tour hasn't disappointed either.

For me it's not about ruining of the spectacle at all. I would love nothing better than to take today at face value and celebrate what was an incredible win.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867873#Comment_120867873

He took those descents like a man possessed.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867910#Comment_120867910

He put more time into Pog on the climb than he did in the earlier sections.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867922#Comment_120867922

Maybe he should use his TT bike for the big mountain stages. He may have stumbled on to something here.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867943#Comment_120867943

Like I said, it's no surprise that he won today's stage.

I wouldn't even begin to hypothesize what he did yesterday to enable such a performance today 😂

It's been a hectic two weeks of racing so far and both riders should be feeling it coming into this last week.

Dcully

@Weepsie I believe it was the TT bike he was speaking of, said he only trained on TT bike for 5 weeks.

Dcully

@JRant

"I'll also say I really like both riders. They had a great battle last year and showed nothing but respect to each other during and since then. The last two years have been some of the best racing we've seen in years and this tour hasn't disappointed either."

Just to quote you on this and to say i couldnt agree more.

Both very likeable guys and have given us two of the most memorable tours in a long time.

Both are champions in my mind.

Girly Gal

No one is really surprised by JV winning, it's the margin of victory considering Pogacar in second had a big margin over the rest of the field.

at1withmyself

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867694#Comment_120867694

Ya that was a tough watch alright, less interested now for the remainder of the Tour.

Good old Rabobank..

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120868011#Comment_120868011

Sticking it to good old Lampre...

MangleBadger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867374#Comment_120867374

Not really. Pog is 2nd. It’s just Planche 2020 reversed. 1 super human performance.

Dcully

Ill just put this here

https://twitter.com/cyclingtakes/status/1681335345302888448

Morris Garren

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120868127#Comment_120868127

And you believe this random twittering to be a reliable source of verification? Trump once tweeted that all Mexican immigrants were sex offenders. That's twitter for ya

Dcully

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120868178#Comment_120868178

Plenty more places to find it apart from twitter if you bother.

CrowdedHouse

Slightly OT for the cross fans 😁

https://twitter.com/cyclocross24/status/1681369688607973376?s=20

cunavalos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120868041#Comment_120868041

Slightly off topic, and this data is five years old but surprising to see the genealogy of professional cycling teams.

There are a few more name changes to add to the list and only a couple of drop outs ( although you have to take into account dimension data is now technically Q36.5).

Add to that many of the additions to this list Cofidis are nearly 30 years old and probably the oldest single named sponsor. The likes of Arkea, Intermarche and Alpecin are upgraded version of continental teams over a decade old.

BMC and Katusha are the only permanent departures from the list and Tinkoff-Saxo ( Team CSC et al.) must have only recently folded prior to 2018.

billyhead

You will always have doubts at the back of your mind about today's performance. It's normal with the history of this sport.

Daroxtar

Le Planche De Belle Fille 2020

Pogacar > Richie Porte/Tom Dumoulin: 2.2s/km

Combloux 2023

Pogacar > WVA: 3.3s/km

Vingegaard >Pogacar: 4.4s/km

Vingegaard > WVA: 7.6s/km

happytramp

That last one definitely feels the most shocking.

Mefistofelino

What incentive does WVA have to go deep, though?. He knows he's not going to win the stage or move on to the podium. It makes sense for Vingo and Pog, or Yates and Rodriguez to go all-in, but Wout? I don't see him destroying himself on this one.

MangleBadger

WVA was 20 seconds back on Cavagna by T2 and finished 15s ahead. Cavagna finished in 6th between the 2 Yates brothers. WVA is a far better TTer than Cavagna. This TT had more metres elevation per k than PdBF. It was a pure climbers TT. I think Pog had a fine TT. Nobody else had a great TT (maybe Pedersen)

Jonas was lifting the entire route. His speed and cornering on the descent was unreal. You could see the difference v Pogacar. Nobody expected him to put that much time in to Pog but I don’t his performance is that ludicrous.

Raoul Duke

Interesting day today. As a Pogacar fan it's what I feared might happen.

I am interested in seeing a w/kg comparison between today and other epic displays.

Regarding Vingegaard and his apparent descending skills - that ties into one of my main gripes with today, which no one else has mentioned. So maybe it's just me. I thought the difference in the camera work from the bike behind the main two was stark. It was beautiful work from the guy behind Vingegaard, but for ages when they cut back to Pogacar it was a helicopter shot. Sometimes it went to the guy on the bike, but the angles and focus from him were a lot worse than the other one. My point being that you couldn't really tell how Pogacar was descending. The clock obviously showed that he was going slower, but was it because of the cornering or the pedalling? I couldn't tell. It really annoyed me today.

To continue with the theme of the visuals from today, Vingegaard just looked like a different beast on the bike. The way his shoulders fold in and his spine comes up. His body shape was amazing. I presume that it is an aero shape, given the time and performance. Pogacar just looked the same as any other day.

Regarding the time differences between the top 2 and the rest - this Tour will probably be remembered as a great Tour, as it's been very close at the top from day 1. However, I think that it's been a very disappointing Tour from the rest. If one of the top 2 had gone down in the first week, what would this Tour be remembered for? Who are the other heroes? How many in the peleton have performed better than last year? Lots of them are worse. Maybe the overall level of the peleton is up, so it's harder for individuals to show up again and again. My point being, that, outside the top 2, based on everyone's performance so far, I don't think the level is very high. Therefore you are going to get huge gaps.

Today was a shock for many, but I think it will be a bigger shock if Pogacar can pull the gap back this week. He will need the ambush of ambushes. I'm personally praying for a stormy, freezing day tomorrow. Afraid to look at the forecast though.

Raymzor

Fri Sat Sun Pog tried to regain time but he left it late each time to make his move-indicates he knew Ving had his number. Ving didn’t waste energy trying to break Pog as he kept his matches for today. Pog did not look comfortable on the bike today. Pog races every day to win. Ving has focused his entire season on the tour and perhaps on todays TT knowing it was his opportunity to take advantage of one of Pogs weaknesses. Despite all this, I was surprised how much time Ving gained today. He might be empty for tomorrow!

Girly Gal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120869076#Comment_120869076

Take JV's performance away and Pogacar's performance looks outstanding, it's only in comparison to JV's time that it doesn't look great. Pogacar may have looked uncomfortable at times, but, he still put in one hell of a time. JV's performance was just astronomical, I don't think anyone even JV himself expected that performance and time gap. Even though it took an extraordinary effort, I don't really think it'll affect him as the stage was quite short, so will have plenty of time to recover.

What was an extremely intriguing race is now virtually over, which is a pity. At best Pogacar might get a few seconds back, but, it's probably more likely JV will extend his lead or he might just mark Pogacar all the way to Paris like he had done over the last few stages.

Would be great if we could erase the TT stage and carry on from Sunday's stage-still think JV would win, but, it would be much more interesting!

eagle eye

Stage 17

So lets set the stage. A big breakaway goes on the first cat 1. Ciccone will be in it, there's a big battle for top ten in the GC going on so I'd expect to see Gall, Martin, Gaudu and Simon Yates there too. You just know Pinot will be there as it's the Queen stage and likely Landa and Pidcock, Bilbao will like it too with all the tricky and fast decents. If the break stays away I like Gall and Pinot to fight it out. But it's the Queen stage and that rarely happens.

I expect UAE to hit the front before the second cat 1. Jumbo will just sit behind them and wait for the attempted move by Pog and cover it. It's going to be a crazy stage I think and Pog could go at any time but Vingegaard has shown he's able to match him.

The end is insane, a very tough climb followed by a fast downhill and then a short but brutal climb to the finish.

Still I think Pog gets something out of this stage, not much, and I'll predict he wins it.

walshb

I watched the TT. JV looked like the only rider possessed.. his appearance on the bike looked like a man cycling for his life..pure heart and desire

Mefistofelino

Todays forecast for the start, though it looks like the rain is moving in a different direction to the race so by the time they get to the Cormet de Roselend, it should have dried up.