Strange New Worlds S2-E3 'Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow

AMKC

Interesting title.

AMKC

Not the greatest episode. This is definitely one where they cut costs to make other episodes. It's a very character centric episode and it might go against some Canon a bit too.

Still some nice scenes in it.

Not one I would be rushing to see again do. It's more like a diller episode.

eadrom

That was fine, I guess. Pacing felt a little slow and I'm just not sure those two characters are strong enough to carry it really, which is an unfortunate thing to be saying about Captain Kirk. New guy is lacking something.

When is Anson Mount back from paternity leave? :)

corkie

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Tomorrow_and_Tomorrow_and_Tomorrow_%28episode%29

@AMKC it might go against some Canon a bit too

The ever changing timeline of when the eugenics war started?

Time travel and bottle episode which the events of which are unknown to the rest of the crew.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781294#Comment_120781294

New guy is lacking something.

Yes I thought that too.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781518#Comment_120781518

Yes its a bottle episode to them but not to us.

What year was this again or did it even say a year?

corkie

The title of the episode probably derives from a play by William Shakespeare in which the titular Macbeth soliloquies:

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,

Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,

To the last syllable of recorded time;

And all our yesterdays have lighted fools

The way to dusty death.[3]

The Orville also had time travel episode with the same name.

1990's is 20th Century, they said they where in the 21st but don't think they gave a year.

Without the devastation of the Eugenics Wars, the Federation will never come to be (exactly how the dictator behind a war in the ’90s is a child in 2023 is a question that’s hand-waved away). ~ https://winteriscoming.net/2023/06/29/star-trek-strange-new-worlds-review-episode-203-tomorrow/

ilovesmybrick

Fine episode. Not great, but okay. I do like La'an, but at this stage into the season I'd like an episode with all the crew together doing some form of Star Trekking.

Spear

It was okay. It just felt a little plodding, like the plot was being stretched out. Some nice but small humour beats and references, e.g. toilet plomek soup.

It reminded me of the BSG remake, where episodes often focussed on one character, just to put them through the wringer.

There's some subtle criticism of the federation in there, from Pelya joking about the whole no-money, socialist, utopia thing not working out, and the implication that the Federation wouldn't rise on it's own merit, only from the atrocities and suffering of the Eugenics Wars and WW3.

nachouser

It was fine for a timey-wimey ep. Nice gag about Toronto filling in for NYC for filming purposes.

breezy1985

Why did they think that was a good idea so soon after the crappy PIC season 2. Was bored out of my mind.

La'an was the only saving grace because that Kirk guy is crap.

That engineer is a pain too. She just drones on and I can't understand a word of it.

PhiloCypher

Things I liked:

* loved the little montage of La'an having to resolve funny little issues we never saw Worf having to deal with. Would have loved to see how he'd deal with a noise complaint against Riker , or indeed him.

* loved how Kirks and La'an conversation in the appartment kind of mirrors Picard and Guinans in Yesterday's enterprise, Kirk rightly asking if he should even be helping her given his reality will cease to exist, and whatever changes are made may lead to him never being born. With her mention of Sam being alive in her reality and the fact her Earth still has Sunrises swinging things back in her favour.

* I appreciated the twist in the end where the Romulans target wasn't a cold fusion reactor but a T2esque mission to kill Khan as a child, Making it a play on the situation in Guardian on the edge of forever . In that episode Kirk had to let Edith Keeler DIE to stop her leading a peace movement that would have kept the Americans OUT of ww2 , in this La'an has to let Khan LIVE to drag the world INTO a war so destructive it will lead humanity to unite in it's aftermath.

* what's the significance of the close up of the watch at the end I wonder .

Things I didn't like :

* the chase scene where they pursue the van in a red Mustang was slower then the Book of Boba moped gang chase. If they can't get the permits to put the boot down in these scenes they really shouldn't bother.

Spear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120784083#Comment_120784083

They previously did all of Discovery season 4 in episode, so doing all (well most) of Picard season 2 in one episode is part of their track record.

corkie

Sera rages that entire temporal wars have been fought trying to change these events; she herself arrived in 1992 trying to eliminate Khan, and she has been trapped on Earth for thirty years – and now she is taking her chance.

@AMKC Above from the linked wiki, so puts them in 22/23 time.

The title comes from William Shakespeare's Macbeth Act 5, Scene 5. The title of TOS: "All Our Yesterdays" comes from the same monologue. A part of this monologue was also quoted by Q in TNG: "Hide And Q".

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120784091#Comment_120784091

what's the significance of the close up of the watch at the end I wonder .

Yes I was wondering that too.

Spear

I don't think the watch has importance to it, it's just symbolic of time in general, and one of the few things to remind her of what happened since she can't tell anyone about it.

CastorTroy

Was expecting her to return the watch at the end to the one person who she might be able to talk to about it.

So if she was the reason Pelia became an engineer, is she also the reason Khan turned bad, when she left a loaded gun in his room?

fritzelly

Middling episode but it was ok, sort of thing you get away with in a 20+ season but not in a 10 episode season with 2 slow episodes behind it to start with

And was it just me but the sound was all over the place, hard to even understand what they were saying at some points to a sudden change to a higher frequency

fritzelly

Missed the post above about the timeline

Stark

Okay episode. Quite plodding for the most part. La'an was excellent. Paul Wesley was okay but I just can't see any "Kirk" in his performance. Would have worked better had he just been "generic male character" imo.

Not sure if La'an was the reason Pelia became an engineer or Pelia was just playing dumb.

TheValeyard

Episode was grand. Car scene bit meh. But I enjoyed the time travel shenanigans.

So trek history is getting pushed back? Khan is born later in this timeline rather than 1992.

Not sure how I feel about Romulans interfering with our history to slow down our progress. Doesnt make sense. Surely the Romulans would have made contact and tried to manipulate us into their empire, rather than risk up finding the Vulcans.

~Rebel~

Yeah, it was fine, definitely a hefty step down from the previous two - but it was still grand, and they've earned the right to have a few cheap and less than stellar ones.

That plan of strolling around a huge city with a watch till the hands glowed... by rights they should've been at it for weeks before they found anything 😅

The Kirk guy... as a character and actor he's grand, reasonably endearing, and if his name was James Flirk I'd be all up for seeing more of him. But it's an actor and performance nothing at all like James T Kirk. I really don't understand that casting choice, and the writing for him isn't very Kirk'ish at all either. In a show that gets so much of that side of things so right, it's an odd misstep.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120785421#Comment_120785421

I think they are trying to use any. alternative universe excuse to squeeze Kirk in without people screaming CANON.

I'm not a fan of Paul Wesley's Kirk either.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120785463#Comment_120785463

Wesley comments that "the last time I made a joke I changed 100 years of history" I took this to be a reason for the retcon.

The Romulan plot is very similar to the sci-fi book

Spoiler Warning

Three Body Problem.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120785655#Comment_120785655

I think I heard Paul Wesley is a buddy and former colleague of the production team.

CastorTroy

I was thinking at first that Kirk was a bit too similar to the real Kirk. I don't mean in portrayal but just how the character acted considering how cold he was with Spock. Was like it was the Mirror Universe but then he talked to La'an and all was good.

DubTony

And they also highlighted the stupidity of the names similarity of Noonien Soong and Noonien Singh. Honestly, who hasn’t gotten those confused at some point over the years?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120787929#Comment_120787929

But they are connected. Soong in PIC 2 was working on project Khan and Soong in ENT was the "father" of augments. So Soong was working in the Singh institute.

What's stupid is this idea of Soongs across the ages like some sort of mad genius Cut Me Own Throat Dibbler.

corkie

https://twitter.com/TerryMatalas/status/1507790980304424961

https://twitter.com/GoodAaron/status/1507836015477620738

So the wiki again referenced the Temporal Cold War for the change in timing of the eugenics war.

santana75

Liked this episode, thought it was gonna be a "Yesterday's enterprise" kind of thing at the start but they went in another direction. I enjoyed it all the same, right up till the end that is. The "Bad guy" was atrocious, as intimidating as a pair of pink roller skates.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120789649#Comment_120789649

The bad guy was a bit of a freakasaurus.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120789800#Comment_120789800

What made the episode decent was just the La'an and not-Kirk interactions and relationship... the actual plot and baddie were all pretty weirdly chosen from start to finish. Like, they only came across the baddie by the complete and total coincidence of having seen them take a photo. This really should've been reversed to have the baddie come to them, secretly aware of who they were - could've used the idea they later used with her getting rid of the cops for them. Had something like that happened at the bridge it's an easier sell.

The watch thing is obviously nonsense. And then the actual performance of the baddie... she fully acted like a fringe nutjob, which makes sense, as that's her cover. But then once its revealed to be a Romulan plot - she's still largely acting like a fringe nutjob, instead of totally dropping the act and becoming suddenly cold and Romulan. Just a lot of odd choices in this one. It's almost like they were on a major time crunch to knock out an extra episode with no notice and had to bash something together asap on a budget

Slydice

I.. I.. I have feels at the end of this episode! Well done the writers/director/Christina Chong as La'an

I really liked how there was at least two underlying stories they subtly got in, the love story between La'an and Kirk and the time travel. Sure it was a time travel episode but it didn't feel like the focus, the individual explorations of La'an and alternative Kirk, like a buddy-cop show felt the main focus.

I liked how she had the watch at the end, I don't think that will be the last of it.

Oh and for the lol, I had to go revisit the tng clip 🙂

Star Trek: They don't know how to use a revolving door

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0_25M_-SKQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0_25M_-SKQ

CastorTroy

This is the second episode in a row with ties to the Eugenic Wars. Could they be setting up something about it?

Though it is strange they took 2 episodes away from what we assumed was the season's arc being set up in the first episode.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791473#Comment_120791473

SNW is supposedly isn't doing arcs so we might not see that till the final episodes of the season.

eadrom

Yeah, I wouldn’t be holding my breath for big season long arcs to develop. Rather I think there’s just a lot of things happening in a “it’s a big universe” style of thing, and they may or may not come back to any of it again.

Remember Sybok? No, neither have they.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120792268#Comment_120792268

I forgot that whole episode. I keep thinking that eeeeevvvillll panto bad guy was a Discovery character.

ItHurtsWhenIP

I've been noodling this episode around in my brain for the last day and a half. I'm really disappointed about not-Kirk (H/T to @~Rebel~) ... like, he seems to be mostly for comic relief here and a bit of eye candy for La'an.

There's also some major inconsistency with his abilities ...

1. Can't use a freakin revolving door ... fine.
2. Does the "Goes backwards shtick" before driving off" ... 🙄 fine.
3. Then out-of-nowhere, executes a perfect J-Turn! 👀

The rest of the story is moderately interesting and well done.

I'm thinking that there will be some significance to the watch and I think it might be ...

Spoiler Warning

Pelia is in La'an's quarters sometime, spots the watch and says "That looks like a watch that I have." She goes and retrieves her watch and shows it to La'an.

A time paradox commences and we have Burnham show up as the Red Angel, cry a lot and then ..... OK ... OK ... maybe not this last part. 😋

But what would it mean to her current timeline?

corkie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120792268#Comment_120792268

Or why we never see this character again?

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Angel_%28Captain%29

https://screenrant.com/strange-new-worlds-star-trek-sybok-mistake-fix/

It would be kind of interesting to follow up on his story?

Spear

They made an effort to cast Sybok, and filmed scenes to introduce him. It'd be an odd thing to have no follow up.If nothing else I doubt they'd commit the money to it if they didn't.

CastorTroy

I'm sure they won't forget about Sybok. After all he would have ties to Michael.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120793485#Comment_120793485

How did I never think of this before.

Michael is Sha Ka Ree. Not the fake god Kirk defeated but the real one.

corkie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120793512#Comment_120793512

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Sha_Ka_Ree

That is a place and not 'The God'?

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120793485#Comment_120793485

Ah fcuk. I forgot about that. And I was happy to have forgotten about that.

pixelburp

Definitely not a patch on last week's but was okay, entertaining enough; maybe the spectacle of the first two needed paying back this week, hence this week being set in modern day Toronto - was a cute idea not to try dress is up as New York or something.

The whole thing was obviously a vehicle for Singh to reckon with her lineage, and by and large I thought it worked. The whole Gorn arc was all right but has wondered when they might address her heritage full on. And interesting to finally, openly address the timeline of the eugenics wars; basically pulling a Terminator and waving it away as something being pushed back by temporal agents. About as neat a way to address it really. Could have done without the one person she connects with being Kirk - that was a wee bit too on the nose.

And if I could demand one thing of TV production, it's that if you don't have the budget to make a car chase work - don't. Never once convincing, then the script lampshaded the fact it proved totally pointless.

Evade

I quite liked this episode even if it was a little slow. I remember complaining when Picard season two was out that it's too easy to have them prevent a disaster to fix the future but having to ensure WWIII or a similar dark chapter of history happens would be a better story and we kind of got that here.

New Kirk is fine just not as Kirk. Maybe if we get a scene if him and that sparkly eye 60s lighting the used to do he'd seem more Kirk-like

The temporal investigations agent wasn't called Tedgogt or some anagram thereof was she?

I hope they get back to full crew adventures next week. Or maybe Bradward will show up

pjcb

is this episodes entirely designed for product placement?

she left the gun on the desk

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797537#Comment_120797537

I suppose one point of order is that this Kirk wasn't "our" Kirk; can't remember how it stacked up against his prior appearances (was that also in an alternate timeline? Can't remember if he appeared outside the Balance of Terror redo). Some of his performance seemed to have a sense of wonder at a world he never knew. By all accounts though, his is the most thankless role in some respects.

Funny cos I recall a bit of grumbling that the "I'm from space" line suggested a goof of continuity - when it was actually perfectly accurate. I also liked that they didn't go with another Evil Federation alternate; it seemed more akin to Yesterday's Enterprise and a well meaning ship fighting a rearguard.

Couple of things the episode tied up, even if I'd prefer they just keep in universe timeline.

They show that events had been delayed, since 1992.

References temporal factions so, while I never loved the temporal cold war, it does give an out for that time period being in flux. They should have referenced sanctuary cities as Sisko/Bell riots could still occur.

If they HAVE to change the in-universe history then better this than just say they got the Eugenic Wars date wrong, due to WW3. Makes no sense given Pucard et al were talking to Cochrane and Lilly.

Also cleans up Voyager's own temporal snafu, when never mentioning Eugenic Wars in 1990s time travel episode

Evade

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797811#Comment_120797811

I made a joke about it being unwatchable because of "I'm from space" but SNW has earned the benefit of the doubt by now.

corkie

https://screenrant.com/star-trek-snw-season-2-christina-chong-interview/

https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/christina-chong-inverse-interview-strange-new-worlds-season-2

Very attractive women in this IRL photo?

I've heard rumblings about this mysterious episode 9 in season 2. And I'm hearing that the idea came from you. Can you tease that a little bit?

So she pitched the idea for an episode?

pixelburp

I've never put pictures side by side but it's always weird how Singh reminds me so much of Drummer from Expanse; similar angry disposition lol, the actors look to same to me; heck even the same heavy eye shadow lol. Drummer was about 5 levels more permanently angry - but I just can't shake that sense of deja vu.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800982#Comment_120800982

Very similar in appearance, posture and mentality (obviously I don't expect Starfleet officers to space people)

Sleepy

It was fine, most importantly for me, and unlike the bottle episodes in Discovery (or to an extent some of the holodeck nonsense on Voyager) it still felt like Trek.