If cycle lane bollards don't belong in Architectural Conservation Areas, why do cars?

monument · 11-07-2023 10:23pm #1

There was an interesting discussion on this in the 30km/h thread...

I don't like the look of plastic bollards along loads of streets. And, in most cases where there's space, I think councils should only be using them in the short-term only (ie 12 months max) before they are replaced by something like bolt-down kerbs or planters etc.

But why is there such a blindspot for some people to cars in Architectural Conservation Areas but plastic bollards aimed at making streets safer are a no-no?

SeanW · 11-07-2023 10:30pm

The cars have an obvious utility - there's a good chance they belong to the people who live there. I don't see why the cars would be any more objectionable than the plastic bollards.

monument · 11-07-2023 10:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120839623#Comment_120839623

The bollards also have an obvious utility. I'm not sure what you think the question was but you haven't replied to it.

SeanW · 11-07-2023 10:59pm

Fair enough, I can't speak to issues with the plastic bollards because I don't have any such issues (it was another poster in that thread who mentioned them). However, I did see a number of posters posting about getting rid of the "cars" which is something I suspect that the people who live in the area might have real problems with.

11-07-2023 11:25pm

Cars are not permanent fixtures. They come and go. Parking spaces are a facility for motorists who may need to drive. That particular street is a business area. Parking fees also create revenue.

The plastic bollards are static, while they may be a facility for cyclists, they don't create any revenue, and are just fugly.

Cookie_Monster · 11-07-2023 11:35pm

The parking spaces are permantent though. Get rid of them and you'll get rid of static cars uglying the place up a lot.

Could put something nice in instead, grass, art, cafe seating, planter boxes etc and make it a street where you would actually like to be instead of the current picture where you'd simply want to be out of there as fast as possible.

11-07-2023 11:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120839804#Comment_120839804

Or you could walk a couple of metres across the road to St Stephens Green, and have all the grass you want to sit on, or around the corner to where there are pubs, cafes, restaurants aplenty. Not too far to walk to the National Concert Hall, or the museums either, and there is an art gallery just around the corner as well.

I presume in order to put in these things you'd also be agreeable to the removal of the cycle parking, and the disability parking bays? (not show in the original picture).

Or can we just cut through the crap now, and admit that this thread is really just another "remove cars" thread?

Mrs OBumble · 12-07-2023 5:44am

If cars don't belong there because they aren'thistoric, then neither do other modern forms of transport like bicycles, scooters, buses, trams.

Bring back the horse and cart!

Flinty997 · 12-07-2023 7:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120839987#Comment_120839987

Without realising it you've just agreed with the premise that cars don't belong.

Flinty997 · 12-07-2023 7:25am

The bollards are there as training aid for drivers and safety. Because we are bad at following the law. But where an area becomes pedestrianised safety isn't the only objective. There's a raft of other benefits.

That said these streets were designed they weren't pedestrian only. They have features for conveniences of the day. Boot scrapers, and coal chutes.

monument · 12-07-2023 8:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120839821#Comment_120839821

I have to ask: Do you care about cars or bollards in Architectural Conservation Areas?

noelfirl · 12-07-2023 9:04am

I think it's a distraction to be honest. I doubt many of the people pontificating about the 'visual awfulness' of bollards etc. really give that much of a toss, or for consistency, they would be demanding that visually fugly vehicles be limited or more controlled as well as well, but that never happens.

As I suggested in another thread where a similar point was raised, I think the real baseline objection is all to do with the fact that the bollards force drivers to slow down, mind their lanes and enforce sharing of the roadspace in a way that paint is insufficient to do. It's not easy to just out and out oppose that, so instead we get whinging about the impact on 'near-UNESCO graded historic Joycean architectural ensembles' etc.

Tenzor07 · 12-07-2023 9:16am

Plastic wands/bollards aren't a permanent solution in any area, you'll see enough Vans/Coach busses parked on them in parts of Georgian Dublin and in front of the Customs house, it's lazy, cheap and a compromise to the more far-right inclined persons...

markpb · 12-07-2023 9:21am

I don’t think it’s that that black & white Noel. You wouldn’t see a mass of flappy hiviz plastic bollards in front of any of the fantastic vistas in London or Rome or Bordeaux and we shouldn’t accept it here either. There are far prettier and far more effective ways of segregating cycle lanes that also force drivers to slow down. This is sloppy work from a council who have a small number of people trying to do their best but with no budget and no support so we end up with temporary solutions that never go away.

blob:https://www.boards.ie/9fd7b0de-d607-4ae7-8270-6aecd5a811c1

Flinty997 · 12-07-2023 9:30am

The resistance is mostly about cars losing priority. Its got nothing to do with Architectural Conservation.

12-07-2023 9:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840305#Comment_120840305

I could ask you the same thing.

I think the city has to function for the times we live in now, not the past.

I worked literally around the corner in from Hume Street for 20 years and walked up and down that street at least 3 or 4 times a week.

The photos make it look like a very long street when in fact it's quite short. Mostly businesses occupying the buildings, solicitors, medical practices etc.

The street was perfectly fine, and no one was tearing down or destroying any of its architecture to make room for more cars, indeed, the only fugly eyesore additions in recent years are the plastic bollards littering this, and other city streets.

Let's be 100% honest here - "architectural conservation" is just another completely transparent excuse being rolled out to try and justify removing car parking from the city.

That's my opinion.

Peregrinus · 12-07-2023 9:59am

If the concern is visual impact on an area of architectural conservation, obviously both the cars and the bollards have an impact. But, equally obviously, the cars have a much bigger impact.

Also worth pointing out that, when the street was designed and laid out, providing storage space for temporarily unused vehicles was not anybody's priority. Hume Street is as wide as it is precisely in order to create a sense of spaciousness and openness. This is lost if much of the street is repurposed as a day-storage yard for bulky goods.

Clearly, there is a social utility to private motoring, which is why we have made the compromises we have with the architectural heritage of Hume Street. Equally clearly, there is a social utility to facilitating and promoting alternative modes of transport that are greener, healthier and don't present the same storage problem and this, too, will explain the compromises made.

So, yeah, count me among those who feel that objecting to cycle lane bollards on the grounds of architectural heritage is probably not, in most cases, motivated by a genuine concern for architectural heritage.

monument · 12-07-2023 10:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840621#Comment_120840621

Are you ok?

It's about if bollards aren't allowed in the areas (as some say they shouldn't be), then why should cars be?

If you don't have any view about bollards in conservation area, what are you doing here? Getting a bit overly protective about cars?

Seth Brundle · 12-07-2023 10:10am

Personally I'd rather not have bollards of any type along the likes of Fitz Sq. or Hume St, etc. (I'd also prefer if we didn't have widespread on-street parking there either!) However, the ugly bollards are needed for a reason.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840621#Comment_120840621

I worked on Ely Pl for a few years which joins Hume St. It was a mess with cars parked on both sides of the road. It is still a mess now with cars parked on one or both sides (depending on where you are on the street). Now, however, there is a bit of road space made available to help keep some road users safe. Do you not think it is a pity that this is required? What realistic and practical solution would you rather have that helps keep people cycling safe on the streets?

Mrs OBumble · 12-07-2023 10:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840087#Comment_120840087

No, that's not how "if / then" statements work in either English grammar or mathematical logic.

12-07-2023 10:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840771#Comment_120840771

Yes, I'm perfectly fine, you can spare me the condescention.

I'm cutting through the BS that is what I'm doing here. I am already aware you dislike my presence, but I am entitled to air my opinions as much as the next person.

My view is that plastic bollards in all areas, are fugly and an eyesore.

There are better ways of doing it, as markpb posted above. I regularly park on Fitzwilliam Place, there are cycle lanes there, in a Georgian area, with minimal bollards.

Unlike you, I do not consider parked cars as an eyesore. They are a necessary mode of transport.

As an aside, do you also believe all wheelchair and accessible parking should be removed from "architectural conservation areas" too?

If not, what is the difference between a car parked by a disabled driver "uglying up the street" than a car parked by an able-bodied one?

12-07-2023 10:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840775#Comment_120840775

Thanks for confirming what I already knew - that the real motivation here isn't protecting the "architectural conservation" of the area.

But about making removing cars and making extra accommodations for cyclists.

irelandrover · 12-07-2023 10:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840926#Comment_120840926

But the poster didn't say what you claim. They said removing widespread parking, so still some available and cars still allowed.

They also didn't mention any extra accommodations for bikes.

The bollards shouldn't be used in this area. It looks terrible. Other methods of traffic calming should be used. Could even use the car parking as traffic calming which would be win win.

McGrath5 · 12-07-2023 10:52am

At least the bollards serve a public function, the cars in the OPs picture are private property that only benefit the owner/user.

noelfirl · 12-07-2023 10:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840546#Comment_120840546

Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see reasonable solutions like that (although can I put it out there - I think based on what I see every day a lot of drivers will willingly drive up, onto and over kerb type solutions if they think they can get away with it without damaging the undercarriage of their vehicle; I suspect this will eventually be a crippling failure of a lot of Busconnects infrastructure based on the plans submitted to date).

But as an interim solution until the necessary permissions can be gotten for such permanent structures (including dealng with the various objectors who then crawl out of the woodwork), I think the benefits of the bollards massively outweigh any visual impact they have. And I'd still contend that a huge amount of motivation against the bollards is nowt much to do with the overall visual impacts.

Tenzor07 · 12-07-2023 10:58am

Many parts of Dublin city centre were demolished and widened to make direct motor-routes into the core city area, e.g. Clanbrassil street which leads into a dual carriageway past St. Patrick's cathedral, and a motorway that was planned along the Grand Canal which would have had an off-ramp at Mount Street, didn't get the go ahead, though I am sure some of the more right-wing contributors here would be using the same points, cars are needed for the city, what about <Insert> group who need a car to get to the city centre..The R803 dual carriageway through Summerhill is an example of the large road projects that actually got the go ahead whereas many didn't...

So the destruction of Dublin's architectural history had it's worst times in the 1960's and 70's, many Georgian buildings allowed to become derelict or destroyed to make roads wider, e.g. Cork street Dublin.. Which makes some of the gripes about plastic bollards seem a bit hysterical to say the least..

Here's a current example of a Georgian house clipped to make wider roads:

Seth Brundle · 12-07-2023 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840926#Comment_120840926

Can you not read?

12-07-2023 11:37am

Yes, obviously I can read.

Do you need to be so rude?

One of the fundamental rules of Boards is not to be disrespectful of other posters because they don't agree with your opinion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841072#Comment_120841072

"Attack the post, not the poster".

Podge_irl · 12-07-2023 11:48am

Bollards are ugly and hopefully in time most of them get replaced by more permanent solutions. However, they are a necessary evil and they are most definitely not what is single-handedly destroying the Georgian character of that street.

If you accept that cars are a necessary utility on the street you'll have to accept the bollards (or improve driver behaviour across the board so they are not needed).

12-07-2023 11:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840943#Comment_120840943

So, as I already asked, what is the difference between the "visual impact" of a car parked by a disabled driver, and one parked by an able-bodied one?

The honest answer would be the difference is none. A car is a car.

As this thread has already shown, "visual impact" is just another ploy to remove more cars from the city. And a very transparent one at that.

monument · 12-07-2023 11:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840926#Comment_120840926

You know it's people against bollards that first mentioned the conservation areas?

irelandrover · 12-07-2023 11:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841193#Comment_120841193

There is no difference in the visual impact of the cars themselves. However there are far fewer disability parking places required than normal cars. They also tend to need to be closer to business.

It is possible to have a car park at locations around the city and keep the streets more or less clear of car parking as the people driving the cars can walk to their location. It would mean you could have disability places and loading bays without really affecting the streetscape.

The street in the opening post looks awful due to the bollards and the car parking. You could widen the footpaths, use staggered car parking at both sides as traffic calming so that the road could be shared by cars and bikes, it would allow you to introduce greenery into the street also which would make the whole street a more pleasant place. Cars and bikes would still be allowed, there is still some parking for businesses.

Something like this.

Seth Brundle · 12-07-2023 11:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841151#Comment_120841151

Yes, obviously I can read.

Based on your first reply to me, it would appear that you can't! Or maybe you'd like to respond to what I actually said rather than what some other interpretation only you derived?

Do you need to be so rude?

I wasn't being rude. I asked a simple question given that you completely failed to understand what I had previously written. If I were going to be rude, you'd know it!

One of the fundamental rules of Boards is not to be disrespectful of other posters because they don't agree with your opinion.

I'm aware of the rules, thanks.

"Attack the post, not the poster".

Again, that wasn't an attack - it was a question. You barged in and made a claim that I had posted something when this is patently untrue. I note that @irelandrover also pointed this out to you when they posted the following (before my "rude" reply):

But the poster didn't say what you claim. They said removing widespread parking, so still some available and cars still allowed.

They also didn't mention any extra accommodations for bikes.

So, asking nicely with flowers and bows on it would you like to answer my actual points?

monument · 12-07-2023 12:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840852#Comment_120840852

I was not trying to be condescending -- I was asking because you seem to be arguing with points that I am not making. I agree with you that bollards shouldn't be used. At most, I think they should only be used where there are no other options (which doesn't include the example in the OP), should only be used in the short term and should be even more so avoided in historic settings.

But given that you made the point, I think for most car use claiming it's necessary and cannot be replaced has been proven wrong over and over again.

Wheelchair and disabled access is an exception, just like emergency access is. Re the difference -- there's a big difference between say 6 disabled spaces and 60 cars. But you're shadowboxing here. I certainly wasn't saying car parking should be reduced for the sake of it.

12-07-2023 12:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841204#Comment_120841204

Sorry, I'm not engaging further, as I'm not allowed an opinion here.

markpb · 12-07-2023 12:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841266#Comment_120841266

You’re allowed an opinion. It’s just that it would be great if that opinion was in any way related to the thread instead of the victimisation that you seem to feel. Go back, read the OP again.

Mrs OBumble · 12-07-2023 3:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120840951#Comment_120840951

I would imagine that most of the buildings in thd picture are also private property and only benefit the owner or tenants.

So what.

monument · 12-07-2023 7:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841317#Comment_120841317

Well said.

Citizen Six · 12-07-2023 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120839780#Comment_120839780

Roads are static, they are a facility for motorists, they don't create any revenue, they are ugly for the most part.

nachouser · 12-07-2023 8:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304684/if-cycle-lane-bollards-dont-belong-in-architectural-conservation-areas-why-do-cars

Sure why not stick it up in AH to get a broader response? Not everyone is watching this sub.

Citizen Six · 12-07-2023 8:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120843628#Comment_120843628

"cyclists don't even pay road tax"

monument · 12-07-2023 9:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120841266#Comment_120841266

With my mod hat on, as the saying goes, I just want to make this clear:

When I'm acting as a mod, I really don't care what your views are. I've just recently infracted people for taking the piss out of people who seem like trolls (and mods hate trolls) and I've infracted people who I agree with on cycling issues in threads.

If I want to spend any time on here, I want to be posting as a normal poster, moding is boring really, and then the complaints are even worse when they are based on other people's biases and not mine.

Loueze was infracted only for backseat moderating in this thread -- something they and others were just warned about the other day in another thread. They were not infracted for anything else.

-- moderator

Larbre34 · 12-07-2023 10:20pm

I originally raised this, albeit tangentially to the matter being discussed, but to sum it up; its about the City Council being so mercenary about private cars and so irresponsible and offhand about other environmental issues in the City for which they are responsible, namely littering the place with poorly designed, cheap and unnecessary street furniture, especially in conservation areas. These things are touted as "temporary", but end up being left in place for years.

On this particular issue, for me, its simple enough.....

Cars are moveable and so DON'T impact heritage areas. Road signing, lining and street furniture are permanent and so they DO impact heritage areas.

Flinty997 · 12-07-2023 10:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120844164#Comment_120844164

Remove cars, no need for any of it. Simple.

Seth Brundle · 12-07-2023 10:35pm

Cars are moveable and so DON'T impact heritage areas. Road signing, lining and street furniture are permanent and so they DO impact heritage areas.

Cars do impact heritage areas and to suggest otherwise is absurd. The Georgian mile looks very different now (or pre-cycle lanes) if you were to compare it to a pedestrianised or low traffic alternative.

I'm not denying that the ability to park cars in the area will be necessary to some but currently the numbers parked do take away from the visual streetscape. Similarly the likes of St. Lawrence's Rd in Clontarf looks a lot poorer with a permanent line of cars on either side of it.

I'm not disagreeing with you that signs and other street furniture impact heritage areas. However, whilst I'd prefer if planters or something more attractive were used to segregate bikes from cars, the ugliness of the bollards are somewhat necessary to help improve road safety until a more suitable alternative can be installed (whenever that might be). Nonetheless, I think the shite looking plastic is a big improvement in road safety thinking when compared to a line of white paint - it's a pity people get so worked up about it yet can't see lines of cars parked as unattractive.