Dummies on big money

take everything

The notion of serious dumdums on big money is one that has always baffled and intrigued me.

How these people got to where they are? How they survive everyday in their jobs? How they haven't been fecked out. How few qualifications and little actual ability a lot of such people have.

The stream of hardneck dumdum CFOs and CEOs from RTE before the PAC is just the latest example of this.

It strikes me that the higher you go in any field, that what one needs for most high powered jobs is 80% hardneck/self-delusion/blind money-desire and 20% skills and ethics.

What blatant examples of this have you seen in your field of work?

Edit: this probably belongs in AH actually. Feel free to move.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304935/dummies-on-big-money

jobs for the boys

at a certain level its networking that gets you jobs

RTE would be worse than most place for it, even the new guy in is really the old guy 😁

no one questions it

z80CPU

Smartphone repair in Ireland.

The official Irish Vodafone / 3 / Eir repair agent is at best mediocre. And specialist agents now for Nokia or Samsung or Motorola - hahahahaha.

The management of these outfits can afford to pay themselves sumptuously.

mariaalice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120846974#Comment_120846974

You still have to have qualifications to be CFO of any company.

How to do it is to get some qualifications, then specialise in something that's current at the time you want to make your move, compliance for example but could be anything network a lot. Then move around every few years.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304935/dummies-on-big-money

RTE is hardly a good representation of C levels in Ireland.

These are the people who still think Tubs is a "talent" and want him back ASAP. That alone tells you they are headless chicken

BattleCorp

Most C Suite level people I have worked with/for are very far from dumdums. Nearly all are very hard working and very fcuking ruthless.

Many give the appearance of not doing much but they are usually excellent delegators.

mazdamiatamx5

I reckon most of these types are not dummies at all but cynically pretend to be to cover their asses. The old see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil approach.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304935/dummies-on-big-money

Anyone that gets to a board level position even in a medium sized organization is anything but a dummy. If they were they would not have got that far. There are hundreds of organizations all around the world that are run by experienced managers who deliver good results year on year and all you have to stack up against them is a couple of bad apples.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304935/dummies-on-big-money

This wreaks of yet another example of Irish begrudgery.

Baba Yaga

any company ive worked in the top brass are fairly sharp,switched on and on top of their jobs...rte i think are the exception

twinytwo

C level are usually very clued in, quick thinkers and as others have said ruthless. You do not get there by accident and if you do,you will not last long. Middle management - now that is an entirely different story....

Squatman

agreed. if they earn more money than you, then theryre not dummies, unless, you the OP are very much a dummy,.

opinionated3

I work for a well known multinational in the Midwest. How we are still in operation beggars belief. Our management is just shockingly inept but they truly have a gift for pulling the wool over our owners eyes. Our factory floor, which has a good number of long serving employees, works of the assumption that " it won't be long till our redundancy package will be offered".

These managers are extremely well paid for what they do. But I wouldn't put them in charge of anything if I had my way.

So yeah, it's not just the big corporations that reward the "dummies" with big salaries. Its pretty much the way of the world. Brass neck and a gift of the gab will definitely get you a long way in Ireland.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304935/dummies-on-big-money

....we tend to respond well to more narcissistic personalities, we tend to overlook major short comings, potential red flags etc etc, for whatever reasons, many high level, high paid people would posse such traits, then when we eventually question them, they turn on another narcissistic trait, the denial of responsibility, and round and round we go.....

...oh and theres plenty of evidence in many professions of such behaviors, particularly those that provide great supply for such individuals....

...will it change.....probably not!

tobesure

Being able to talk the talk gets you further than being able to walk the walk.

BrianD3

They're not really dumdums though, they likely have above average but not exceptional intelligence. They are skilled at politicking, profile raising and manipulation. Life isn't a meritocracy and having reasonable intelligence and a hardneck is a good combination for success. Greed and hubris can trip them up though.

Look at Oireachtas committee meetings and corporate meetings generally -people are not straight with each other, they ask questions that they already know the answer to to catch out others or bounce them into doing something. How many IQ 145+ people, with autistic traits do well in such an environment? Even in academia where one would think that the most academically gifted would thrive, politics and competition for scare resources (grants/funding) sees to it that this often doesn't happen.

Out of my class in college, one of the individuals who has done the best out of all of us (would be on well into 6 figures) had mediocre ability and was an arsehole. Was constantly up the lecturers' arses looking for exam hints, still didn't do great in his exams in the end. Still got a job before anyone else. Then he was involved in several controversies which resulted in him "leaving" various jobs - yet this doesn't appear to have impacted his career at all.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120850809#Comment_120850809

...a lot of those traits can also be linked to narcissism....

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120847717#Comment_120847717

what are you trying to say and what qualifications do you need

take everything

Just to clarify of course when I say dumdums I generally mean midwits. The exact person the last poster described in his last paragraph.

Having said that they don't even have to be midwits.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120850906#Comment_120850906

whats a midwit?

mariaalice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120850893#Comment_120850893

Any accountancy qualification is a good start, the thing about moving around every 2 years or so is if they are not great they are never there long enough to do any harm.

Any of the really good bosses I worked with who got promoted upwards were really good it's hard to explain, things like being able to read and absorb reports very quickly and find the salient points absorb a huge amount of information, they used language very precisely, they made very few mistakes, very organise, worked quicker than others, calm logical, knew how to delegate,

One boss overhearing me on a phone call saying...I'm in work said to me you are not in work you are at work, they would not have meant it badly but things like that were very important to them. They have a different brain than the rest of us.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851077#Comment_120851077

Most have some business background for sure, but what is this point?

getting a pass in some business degree isn't exactly hard

look at these guys

mariaalice

Also didn't spoof, didnt make things up, knew the different between being economical with the truth and outright lying. At those hearing they could be questioned for upto 3 hours. Try always staying on messenge and not tripping yourself up and answering questions for 3 hours and see how you get on.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851207#Comment_120851207

what business is this, because everyone knows absolute stinkers in all businesses, they also know some good ones

take everything

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Midwit

Basically, people who are above average intelligence but where the Dunning-Kruger effect is pretty big.

So, they've gone to university and get to know stuff in their little silo, but when you probe deeper/ask difficult questions, they kinda don't understand things properly or how things are connected globally.

I often find this goes along with a self-delusion/lack of emotional intelligence. But that lack of emotional intelligence/self-awareness can often be quite self-serving/protective especially if you can get a lot of not so bright people thinking you're amazing.

And this basically happens everywhere.

EchoIndia

Not making excuses for anyone in RTE, but put anyone in the pressurised surroundings of an Oireachtas committee, with questions being fired at them on a very messy set of issues and limited opportunities to give proper replies, and they will rarely come well out of it. The great majority of people in the country are not in jobs where their performance is publicly scrutinised in front of politicians, the media and the public. It's worth asking yourself "how would I do in that situation?" The honest answer is probably "not as well as I might like to think".

StupidLikeAFox

It's hilarious when people say "they only got there through networking and politicking" as if that isn't a core skill for operating at this level.

mariaalice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851358#Comment_120851358

Not all need to be like that but it's rare to get on without networking and politicking, another skill I admire is the ability to be friendly with everyone but friends with no one ( in a work situation ) but do it in a way that's not obvious that is the skill.

Swaine

It's who you know not what you know.

Paul Reid a great example of this. A spoofer.

mariaalice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851431#Comment_120851431

So who did he know then? I am fairly sure that aren't handing out MBAs to idiots, plus if all it takes is spoofing why aren't more doing it?

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851306#Comment_120851306

...this is more or less narcissism.....

...and yes, its common within institutions that have been left largely unchecked for long periods of time, a similar problem is currently occurring within the hse, we need to move this whole process of scrutiny into there next!

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851358#Comment_120851358

the issue is that this networking happens from the cradle, if you dont go to clongowes you will never get in with the merchant princes etc

these are the useless ones

the one who graft there way up with hard work aint

RYAN is the perfect example, do you ever question how you arent on stupid money in RTE but somehow he is

StupidLikeAFox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851633#Comment_120851633

A fair point about tubridy, but i was talking about c-suite level people. Also plenty of people get on without the family connections as and plenty of people with family connections get nowhere. So a bit simplistic to say people are just born into these high powered positions.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120851724#Comment_120851724

Look as nice an idea as it is, this pull yourself up by your boot strings is rare in comparison to the others

Now the thread is to question how all these dummy's end up in high places and this is the answer

It's not just hard work on their parts

Rte is an example of somewhere this is as bad as it gets

There’s a lot of professions where salaries have grown substantially in the past few years. Software development, cybersecurity consultants, accountants, management consultants, airline leasing professionals. There’d be a surprising percentage of people in their late 20’s/early 30’s already on 100k plus, especially if they work in the IFSC, D2 or D4.

The vast majority of these people are on that salary because they are intelligent, driven and hard-working. They will also tend to be able to make decisions quickly, have excellent interpersonal skills, and have a clear 5,10 and 20 year plan.

Beasty

I have worked for a tyrant in a FTSE100 company, who got his job through inheritance

I have seen executives in substantial organisations raking it in through their "special arrangements" with suppliers

I have seen people promoted because they shout loudest

Fortunately most of that was in the 20th century. Things have changed and continue to change. Yes people still get somewhere by who they know rather than what they know, but they are the ones caught out through negligence or incompetence. I have seen massive improvements in Corporate Governance in the past 15 years or so. It is taking time to trickle down, but things are way better now that they were 40+ years agon when I set out in my career

mariaalice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120863258#Comment_120863258

I think the op is talking about today, not the past, very few hiding places today.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120863468#Comment_120863468

Parents will still look out for their kids

How many companies out there have bosses kids running them

Professions like law firms accounting etc all the same

BrianD3

Cronyism and nepotism are natural human behaviours and given the small size of Ireland and the historically poor employment situation, things may be particularly bad here. Life is not a meritocracy and instead of the cream rising to the top, often the connected and the ruthless rise to the top.

Also, see how many current and former GAA and rugby players do very well for themselves, they are hero worshipped by idiots, usually up to their necks in women and "looked after" for jobs from a young age. Were they the best person for the job? Some of them are absolute pricks.

FortuneChip

Peter Principle, particularly in Politics.

People keep rising the ranks until they exceed their level of competence and then they just loiter there.

Someone is competent at their role, and they earn promotion to another role. This role may require utilising new skills. The person may be competent at these new skills, and thus earn a further promotion. Eventually, they'll rise the ranks high enough to a point where they can't adapt to the new skill requirements, and they just end up stuck there; blocking more high-skilled people from ascending.

Spoofing, cronyism and nepotism can skew the results.

zg3409

Firstly I find many management type people act very differently to higher ups than lower downs. They will jump through hoops to look well to higher ups, "recalculating" results to make them look better, ensuring any whim is acted on. Then below them they will seem unkind and harsh, but they probably need to be to manage and get the lower levels to get the work done.

I have seen totally useless managers in semi state or quangos where they got the job through connections and doing any actual work is not really needed by the organisation instead being a "yes" man and not hanging out upper levels is what is needed. They don't care about anything lower not even taking a fake interest.

Definitely family or business networking can have a big impact, particularly outside cities.

Often people managers don't have or dont need to have great technical ability nor be the technical best, instead they need to manage the people above and below them to get them to do the work and then they try take praise.

It's actually very hard being in a management position in many companies, as the job varies so much from office politics, to impossible to control employees and unions, problems out of their control and unrealistic deadlines or demands.

Often the clever ones are looking out 2-5 years at when the next higher level vacancy will come up and sweet taking their way into being considered for the role.

In IT or software often the managers can be paid less than employees as they have not the specialist technical skills needed such as good programming. Instead they are project and people managers.

chrisd2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304935/dummies-on-big-money

In my experience, from my career at work in various public and private sector companies since the 1990, the title, level in the organisation and salary, often have nothing to do with the work ability or intelligence of the person. Quite often it is long service, being in the right place at the right time or underhanded/intimidation that got the person the big bucks!

Flinty997

In my experience many IT managers are/were programmers and while they are a great programmer they are woeful managers.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120863468#Comment_120863468

I think there are plenty of hiding places today.

A lot of senior managers are not are very good at self promotion. Some are good at their job, many are not. But that they got where they got to you have to given them credit for it, even if they are mediocre at their job. Some are excellent though.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865624#Comment_120865624

Politics is the one domain where the Peter Principle doesn’t apply. They have to reinterview for their job with an interview panel of thousands every five years or so.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865624#Comment_120865624

I only partially agree with this. Some people are very good in their role, their niche and no desire to move from it. In IT this could a programmer who wants to code, not be a manager. Could be a craftsman who want to do their craft not be a manager of business. On the other hand you do meet people who get promoted into a role and just struggle with it. But how do you know unless you try. Some of it is company culture. Some with struggle in one company, thrive in another.

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865777#Comment_120865777

Ya my experience is the same IT programmers have little management skills.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865823#Comment_120865823

Occasionally you get a programmer who is a good manager, but a lot aren't. At least in my experience.

FortuneChip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120865819#Comment_120865819

I'm not suggesting this is the sole piece at play, I'm just using it as a one counter to the OP's suggestion that it's "dummies" on big money, but it's possibly a case of people earning their rise in the ranks only to find themselves in a position that no longer suits their strengths. Your IT example being pretty apt.

Flinty997

I think it's rare you find a manager who is technically poor at their job. More it's their personality that just doesn't work in the role. Perhaps it's worked to this point, but had reached is limit. Which I guess is the same point your making.

It's like a mountaineer whose stubbornness gets them to the top of a mountain, but also gets them out of their depth and into danger because they won't back down. Same trait works to a point.

I think that's different to being inept in a role.

michaelcwyatt

Well, yeah sometimes ambition and self-promotion could have an impact on getting management positions, but I have never seen a stupid person in a management position who did not know how to bring more money to the company. And this is the most important thing - bring money. lots of money.