Gorey Gaelscoil debacle - astonishing legal smackdown

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120875351#Comment_120875351

Nah.

Out of the blue this guy is violent towards a young child is the reach and his outing just so happened to coincide with a new BOM?

Doesn't pass the smell test.

tabby aspreme

New BOM's to be appointed this coming November, get canvassing now folks

lulublue22

It gets worse not alone is the chair a registered teacher but it seems she is an education professor who trains teachers who has sat on investigation boards for the Teaching Council. You couldn’t make this **** up it’s mind boggling.

Faugheen

Am I the only one who has a problem with the principal admitting to grabbing a 6/7 year old child because they stamped their feet?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876405#Comment_120876405

No. I think it's absolutely abhorrent, with far more to this story then we know. I also think the High Court Judge minimising it to the point it was nothing is quite startling.

It's pretty obvious the BOM procrastinated to the point of farce on purpose because they didn't want this individual back in the school.

Fair play to them.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876444#Comment_120876444

Fair play?

perhaps if they had of just done things correctly this wouldn't be the outcome. The fact that they fupped it up means the man is reinstated with back pay. If he did deserve to lose his job they should have acted correctly.

now the man has his good name completely vindicated.

Cormex25

I was a former pupil back in 2002 when the Gaelscoil in Gorey first started. I'm glad some people see how inappropriate the incident with 'Pupil A' was and question whether it's a one off.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876444#Comment_120876444

It's pretty obvious the BOM procrastinated to the point of farce on purpose because they didn't want this individual back in the school.

That’s not obvious at all. What’s obvious is that the BOM didn’t follow fair procedures.

Cormex25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876479#Comment_120876479

Unfortunately you're correct. If they wanted him gone, they should have done their due diligence.

Nevertheless, I hope you can appreciate how grossly inappropriate the incident with 'Pupil A' was and question what would happen in situation where parents dont become involved and if these issues existed before. In many cases, people only become apologetic when they're caught out.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876479#Comment_120876479

Nope, unfortunately he would have got the barest slap on the wrist and would have been reinstated immediately.

The High Court Judge Stated as much in his judgement.

This happened before the guidelines were updated.

We have just seen with the deplorable cretin Burke how powerless a BOM can be.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876521#Comment_120876521

Yes, to keep him away from the school.

The alternative was him back immediately.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876496#Comment_120876496

BS

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876722#Comment_120876722

If there was a case to answer, they should have acted correctly, but they didn't and now this is the result.

wildwillow

There was no excuse for what he did to a seven year old. Any teacher, never mind an experienced Principal, should never lose his temper, no matter how defiant a child may be. I would not like him teaching my grandchildren with that attitude.

However the whole incident was badly handled and the chairperson was totally in the wrong.

Cormex25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876731#Comment_120876731

Far from it. I could tell you a few stories, but from the sound of it you're not interested in anything beyond the headlines. I don't know what the situation is now, but at the time the Children's Ombudsman would only investigate a complaint if a student was still attending the school.

When the school started in 2002, it was very small and barely had enough numbers to stay open. We only had prefabs near where Naomh Eanna is now located in Gorey. So basically staying there for them to investigate a complaint would have required staying in very close quarters.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876782#Comment_120876782

You missed the point, if they acted by the book he would have been reinstated immediately which given what we know is firmly a child welfare issue.

The result is he hasn't been able to physically or mentally abuse a child in nearly 12 years. Which we both agree is the most important thing, correct?

Whatever method worked. Too long in this country have we made the safety and welfare of children secondary, I vividly remember violent bully's like this individual and I am not that old.

Judging by his picture he must be near or past retirement age, hopefully his "teaching" days are up.

Like I said fair play to the BOM, the chairperson is an extremely experienced individual and the idea that she just went rogue and it was turned into a personal vendetta is ludicrous.

His own violent cruel actions caused this, a once off the week the new BOM were instated. How unlucky. 😏

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876789#Comment_120876789

Everyone loves a tryer

Cormex25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876831#Comment_120876831

If you say so mate. I know what I've experienced, and I didn't go through the effort of posting on here for no reason. I'm glad some people on this forum see sense, even if you're not one of them.

Hogeveen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876556#Comment_120876556

I see you were a former pupil. I was involved in the school for years. That was a shocking incident, and I contacted the principal immediately after it happened (as I'm sure many other parents did). You suggested that similar had happened before? We spoke to lots of other parents and heard nothing of the sort. We'd have had our child out of there immediately had we thought otherwise. We may have been wrong of course, and perhaps you know something we don't.

Missy95

Isn’t she teaching student teachers?

https://www.mie.ie/en/about_us/staff_directory/melanie_ni_dhuinn.html

Missy95

I think she trained student teachers in Trinity and is now training them in Marino.

Missy95

She’s also a lecturer apparently who trains teachers, if it’s the same person.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876818#Comment_120876818

I’m not missing your point, but you’re way off in thinking that the BOM couldn’t have dismissed him in accordance with employment law. The fact is they didn’t do that, and that’s what caused this outcome. From the opening post alone, I haven’t counted how many times the judge pointed out the actions of Ms. Ní Dhuinn and the Board were unreasonable, but it’s a lot!

"In a scathing criticism of Ms Ní Dhuinn and the Board of Management, Mr Justice Cregan stated that: “the suggestion therefore that Mr O’Suird was plucking numbers out of thin air was false. The persons responsible for this debacle are Ms. Ni Dhuinn and the board of management. Almost every single decision they took leading to Mr. O’Suird’s dismissal was unreasonable; the decision by Ms. Ni Dhuinn not to complete the investigation into the single child incident by end January 2013 was unreasonable; her decision never to finish the single child investigation was unreasonable; her decision to keep Mr. O’Suird on administrative leave while she carried out her other investigations was unreasonable; her investigation into these other matters was a rush to judgment; her decision to make allegations against Mr. O’Suird in respect of eight other matters without a comprehensive report was unreasonable; her decision to let all these other allegations hang over him throughout the hearing was unreasonable and tainted the disciplinary hearing; her allegations of fraud and fraudulent misrepresentation were manifestly unreasonable; her refusal to interview any member of the previous Board in circumstances where Mr. O’Suird said that everything he did was done with their consent was manifestly unreasonable; her delay was unreasonable; the board’s decision to dismiss Mr. O’Suird was unreasonable; its concealment of evidence was unreasonable; its decision to appoint a new principal even though Mr. O’Suird had appealed to WRC was a blatant attempt to pre-empt the jurisdiction of the WRC, the Labour Court and the High Court and to set at nought certain remedies these bodies might order including reinstatement.”

"Ms. Ni Dhuinn was made chairperson of the Board of Management in December 2011. Within weeks she had destroyed all the work done by her predecessors. It is a shocking legacy".

The Board could have dismissed him properly, but they didn’t, and it’s pointless going over the case again here when it’s already been through the Courts and a decision was made. It has nothing to do with keeping him away from the school on the basis of any child protection issues, but if you want to take that angle, the Board still failed, miserably.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120877985#Comment_120877985

On what grounds could he have been dismissed?

Under the relevant guidance at the time what he did, did not amount to gross misconduct.

The Judge noted in his ruling that he wouldn't have received any sort of sanction.

I would have thought, once the solicitors for the parents of Pupil A had written to Ms Ni Dhuinn on January 25, 2012 to say that, in their view, it was a minor matter, that should have been the end of the matter. 

Obviously if he did that in the street he would have been charged with assault, but the bar is set higher in schools. 🤷‍♂️

It has nothing to do with keeping him away from the school on the basis of any child protection issues, but if you want to take that angle, the Board still failed, miserably.

Really? How many children has he assaulted in that school in the past 12 years?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120877066#Comment_120877066

Yes, she is highly experienced and has also sat on teaching councils which have removed teachers.

You could call her "New School" where being violent to 7 year olds should not be a sanction free offence.

We need more of her and less of that sort of cretin.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878437#Comment_120878437

But her BOM didnt disniss him for being violent - they dismissed him for administrative/numbers returns.

You could argue to the contrary that she saw a minor admin mistake as being more serious to the violent incident you allege happened.

The Judge has made very clear statements about her personally - something Judges dont do without being sure.

lulublue22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878437#Comment_120878437

No we don’t. She isnt “new school” or a caped crusader. It’s laughable that you see her as a shinning light for child protection when she didn’t even follow HSE recommendations. A big red flag in my opinion. The judges summary is quite clear of the inadequacies and unreasonableness of her behaviour. There are no hero’s here on either side. Whether you like it or not her behaviour was highly unprofessional , immoral ( in terms of with holding evidence) and not conducive with the teaching profession values and ethos. ( available on the teaching council’s website) She is not someone who should be lecturing trainee teachers nor sitting on investigative boards. The teaching profession is comprised of more than just teachers and all should be held to the highest standards.

Can you link / give a reference number / or where you heard that was the case of the relevant guidance of the time as I’d like to read up on that. I have not come across any reference to updated guidance.

tks

blackwhite

Has anyone actually read the details of the case? The incident where he acted violently towards the pupil wasn't the reason that he was dismissed, it was just the first incident that triggered wider investigations.

The reason they dismissed him was that he had deliberately overstated the pupil numbers in returns to the Department of Education in order to 1) get an additional staff member paid for by the department and 2) to get a higher principal's allowance for himself.

In his own evidence he admitted that there was "some over-statement of enrolment figures to the Department of Education" but claimed that this had been done in full collusion with the previous Board of Management, and he presented two witnesses from the previous Board who agreed with him.

It's shocking to see a High Court judgement that somebody admitting that they colluded to defraud the Department of Education (and ultimately the taxpayers of this country) by submitting false declarations "was a grey area and perhaps a written warning would have sufficed"

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878497#Comment_120878497

You could argue to the contrary that she saw a minor admin mistake as being more serious to the violent incident you allege happened.

I allege happened? You sure?

Unfortunately that's not her opinion, that's the guidance, "cooking the books" is gross misconduct and grounds for dismissal, being violent towards a young child isn't.

Again it comes back to our woeful legacy which continues today on child welfare.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878503#Comment_120878503

HSE recommendations

Oh yes, the HSE and their absolute sterling track record on child welfare in this country. 😕

Whether you like it or not her behaviour was highly unprofessional

Yes I know, but the ends justifies the means.

Remember only one person has a history of violence towards children in this story.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878437#Comment_120878437

Given the judge's comments about her highly unprofessional behaviour, one could suggest that previous decisions made against teachers that she had any involvement in could be called into question. And you want more of her type?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878532#Comment_120878532

You're deflecting. The HSE's guidelines are different from how the HSE may or may not be lacking in their duties (and you know this!).

lulublue22

That’s irrelevant - whatever the historical failings of the HSE , it did recommend in this case an internal investigation - one which would put procedures and practices in place to prevent incidents such as this occurring again. That the board did not do so is a big red flag in terms of child protection.

We will have to agree to disagree on that point - I have sat on boards- the behaviour of this board is beyond comprehension made worse by the fact that the chairperson is highly educated , experienced and involved in the education system. Due process exists for a reason. I would go so far as to say that she should not be allowed to continue on as an education lecturer nor continue to be associated with the Teaching Council.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120876818#Comment_120876818

You are going a bit over the top there boss.

Absolutely, what the Principal did was wrong but it was very minor in the scale of things.

The incident was referred to the HSE and they said the incident did not constitute physical abuse of the child.

The court heard that on October 24, 2012, the HSE wrote to Ms Ní Dhuinn with its findings. “An incident did occur, however the incident cannot be said to have constituted physical abuse of a child,” the HSE wrote.

The BOM have consistently been shown to be wrong in their treatment of the Principal. You seem to think the BOM were right yet the school lost a WRC case in 2018, a Labour Court case in 2021 and now a High Court case in 2023. I wonder why the BOM lost so often. I'm going to go with they clearly acted the b0llix with the Principal.

The Workplace Relations Commission in 2018, and the Labour Court in 2021, found in Mr Ó Suird’s favour.

https://gript.ie/judge-describes-injustice-against-wexford-principal-is-festering-wound/

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878590#Comment_120878590

Given the judge's comments about her highly unprofessional behaviour, one could suggest that previous decisions made against teachers that she had any involvement in could be called into question. And you want more of her type?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/music-teacher-jailed-for-welfare-fraud-banned-from-teaching-1.4751594

Really?

Was he hard done by too?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878596#Comment_120878596

what the Principal did was wrong but it was very minor in the scale of things.

I don't think assaulting a child is minor nor do I think this was a once off. Boss.

lulublue22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878522#Comment_120878522

There isn’t a school in the country that hasn’t had incorrect numbers reported to the dep at some stage - child stays on the roll when they move schools till the old school gets written confirmation from the new school. In the meantime dep requires no’s to be reported by a certain date in September. This is why the judge referred to the deps reporting procedures at the time. Also given the evidence ( that we don’t have) both the WRC in 2018 and the labor court (2021) ruled in his favour re the fraud element of the case.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878595#Comment_120878595

one which would put procedures and practices in place to prevent incidents such as this occurring again. 

What would they be?

I would go so far as to say that she should not be allowed to continue on as an education lecturer nor continue to be associated with the Teaching Council.

Personally I think people who physically abuse children should not be let inside a school, let alone be allowed run them.

I guess we will have to agree to differ.

I don't think I'd be the outlier here though.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878606#Comment_120878606

It was very minor. The HSE, the WRC, the Labour Court and the High Court didn't think it was an issue and neither did the child's parents. But you know better.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878620#Comment_120878620

The people charged with protecting the welfare of the students in that school didn't think it was minor and they went out of their way to keep him away from that school.

That trumps woeful procedure protections and our criminal lack of child welfare in this country.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878597#Comment_120878597

I didn't mention anything about him so not sure why you're throwing that at me.

I posted about her exceptionally poor professional behaviour - the behaviour that you are lauding! Do you think anyone who has had a decision made against them haven't questioned whether her involvementr could be worked against that decision? Of course they have and it would be highly naive to think otherwise!

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878648#Comment_120878648

I didn't mention anything about him so not sure why you're throwing that at me

You mused that her past decisions are questionable, she chaired that panel.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878641#Comment_120878641

So they were so concerned with child protection that they ignored child protection policies? They ignored the child's parents?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878657#Comment_120878657

Maybe English isn't your first language but I'd recommend that you read back what I posted:

Given the judge's comments about her highly unprofessional behaviour, one could suggest that previous decisions made against teachers that she had any involvement in could be called into question. And you want more of her type?

Either way, she failed in her role. her legacy in that role is that she effectively tried to frame a principal and got a severe bollicking from a judge. And you think she is some kind of professional role model?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878658#Comment_120878658

The childs parents bizarrely releasing a statement through their solicitor is moot when it comes to child safety and welfare.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878670#Comment_120878670

Maybe English isn't your first language 

No need to be a dick.

one could suggest that previous decisions made against teachers that she had any involvement in could be called into question

I linked to a decision she chaired.

I fail to understand what could actually be confusing you.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878714#Comment_120878714

Ypou're doing everything you can do defend her actions. The reality is that she along with the board spectacularly failed to follow child protection advice from both the HSE and the parents. Then you had the framing of the principal on spurious grounds which led to the bollicking that I previously mentioned.

And, you seriously think this behaviour should be repeated with your statement "We need more of her"?

Edit

lulublue22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878619#Comment_120878619

They would be ones that ensure that in that school that the chances of it happening again would be mitigated. As is best practice. Given that I don’t have any experience / knowledge of that school I wouldn’t be in a position to say which is not the same as there are no procedures that could be implemented.

I do think it’s very very telling that you use increasingly emotive language and conflate raising concerns about the lack of professionalism and indeed immoral behaviour of the chair as synomous with supporting child abuse in schools. I’m sure you’ll receive a **** load of tks for that. However it is not an either or -two wrongs do not make a right and I stand by my assertion that her behaviour is not conducive to / compatible with the teaching profession which is particularly relevant in her case given her access to trainee teachers and links to the Teaching Council.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878641#Comment_120878641

And again I'll say, the HSE, the WRC, the Labour Court and the High Court have said it's not an issue.

They've all said that the actions of the BOM were wrong.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120878726#Comment_120878726

My comment was aimed at your apparent inability to comprehend a very simple statement regarding her professionalism. She clearly has no professional integrity so why wouldn't people want to question her previous decisions?

But bizarrely you seem to think that someone who gets a bollicking from a judge over their unprofessional behaviour should not have their decisions questioned?

If this was a garda who had been described in the same manner for similar behaviour (including withholding evidence), would you really be saying that we need more of them? Would you question their previous cases?