PCC

Golfgraffix

I am at a loss to understand how the PCC works and if it actually works at all.

Played yesterday and it was in a strong wind and very heavy rain. In the old CONGU CDH2 days it would have been reductions only, haven't done the maths, but I am fairly confident that the CSS of ‘SSS would be +3. Shot 35 points, which felt like 40 points, gross 81 off 8.1 (par 71). I was sure there was going to be a PCC of at least 1. Which wold have given me a cut but there was none.

41 players in comp (very few visitors and no GP scores from members on the day)

Within 10% better of 36 -3 players (7% of the field)

36 0 (0% of the field)

Within 10% worse than of 36 9 players (22% of the field)

Within 20% worse than of 36 12 players (29% of the field)

Within 30% worse than of 36 7 players (17% of the field)

Within 40% worse than of 36 6 players (15% of the field)

Within 50% worse than of 36 4 players (10% of the field)

dan_ep82

Played Concra Wood in the closest thing to a storm you can get ( heavy heavy rain, 3/4 club wind) and PCC of 1. Under the old system I would expect a CSS of 33

Played Headfort New a few weeks back in 2.5 club wind and I swear they were trying out the Challenge Tour Sunday pins, every pin was in the hardest part of the green, most in places I've never seen them and as far back as you could go on the tee boxes to the point where a wide stance would have you off the box and no PCC adjustment

It's the one part of the new system I think that's failing to work. Playing well in bad conditions seems to net you nothing now, might as well wait for a good day.

spacecoyote

Is the calculation available anywhere?

Golfgraffix

I can’t find it

FixdePitchmark

I don't know calculation..but from a logical/ mathematical perspective..if the system is based on a trimed average performance..when you start to bringing values into an average that were abnormal and with excessive correction..it will impact on your average.

8 scores are discarded..so you kind of have to accept that these days have no legitimatacy in working out an accurate average .

If we ignored Golf for a second..if you have 20 values..and your trying to predict what will happen next ...if this is influenced by bad data or corrected data. You will have difficulties. The system does not want outlier days ..

Now to counter that ..the problem WHS is ..it doesn't sufficiently correct for local conditions and we play golf in what you described a fair bit...

But the argument will be made ..8 scores have to drop anyway ..just let that one go ..some are going to go..so let the the tough days go..

Sorry ..your question is exact PCC calculation..I don't know ...very odd you can't find it ..

plumber77

PCC of 3 in my home club yesterday, strokeplay event. Weather was moderate wind and some showers. Don't know where they pulled 3 out of.

Golfgraffix

It’s like the 3rd secret of Fatima.

My thoughts are have it or don’t have it, this opaque, shrouded in mystery lark is a pain.

I get what you are saying about it averaging out but I’m not sure a one size fits all works for our little island. We play more competition golf than anyone and we play we most won’t go out to get milk for the baby.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120892251#Comment_120892251

did you ask Golf Ireland?

gypsy79

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897818#Comment_120897818

They have said in a few places that they had to keep it secret

I think they leaked at one point that is similar the old calculation (based on categories). But they also admitted they changed the parameters this year so that it would be 0 less often

Seve OB

found this but it doesn't appear to be of any help

just wondering, does handicap sec have to run something to apply the PCC? i know it's supposed to be an automatic calc, but ccould it be something like a feature that your club has turned off? also i see in below link there can be 2 pcc's applied for weather, how is this supposed to be applied? i can only imagine it is a manual application, anyone know?

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/5%206%20Playing%20Conditions%20Calculation.htm

Rikand

The best way I can explain it.

36 points is not normal standard scratch anymore. 34 points is actually closer to standard scratch and you can see that from your 8 counting rounds for your handicap. Typically you will have a couple of scores higher than 36 points and the rest roughly 36/35/34 points each or there or thereabouts. A score of 35 points or better will reduce your handicap most of the time (the time it doesnt is when you're knocking out a good score).

The PCC works the same way. It treats 34 as standard scratch. It looks at single handicap golfers and judges how they played the course to determine PCC as typically single handicap golfers would be more consistent than higher handicap golfers. If all the single handicap golfers played rubbish, it gives a PCC score of 2 or 3. If 10% of them played it to 34 points, it will give a PCC of 1 and then if more than 10% played to 34 or better it gives a PCC of zero.

I think I saw the leaked table before and it looked something like this ::

10% of single figure golfers beat 36 points - NO PCC

10% of single figure golfers in range 34-36 - PCC 1 (other 90% worse than 34)

10% single figure golfers in range 32-34 - PCC 2 (other 90% worse than 32)

10% single figure golfers in range 30-32 - PCC 3 (other 90% worse than 30)

Now that might not be exact, but the leaked table I saw looked something like that. And thats why you see very few PCC calculations. You probably mostly see them on days where next to no single handicap golfers played.

slingerz

That’s not the way at my club. Typically hitting your handicap will have you 1/2 below your index

Rikand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120910165#Comment_120910165

1/2 a shot. like 0.5 ? That would be fairly correct.

Rikand

btw, that would be based on my home course which has an average CR and SR. Other courses with higher/lower SRs/CRs might experience slight differences

slingerz

No it’s 1 or 2 shots mostly 2

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120910138#Comment_120910138

What I read about PCC is it essentially looks at how many players are x number of standard deviations from their mean score on a given day. And then if that number, or percentage I'm assuming, is above a threshold then PCC gets applied. I don't know what x or the threshold are, which is obviously key to understanding when it gets applied.

Thinking about this, higher handicap players will have a much wider distribution of scores, which means a standard deviation will be a much larger number than for a low handicap player. So for example if x is 2 SDs, a high handicap player might have to shoot 8 worse then their handicap, and a low handicap player 4 worse or something.

It is not designed to mimic the old system. I read that it's designed to be applied less often.

newport2

Played in a comp a couple of weeks back in horrendous conditions, strong wind and sheets of rain. The results showed two people in the field out of 42 entries played to their handicap. PCC was 0.

I read last year (I think) that the algorithm was wrong and not calculating the PCC correctly. It was changed and I noticed PCCs of 1 and 2 started getting applied when things were tough, as you'd expect. I don't think there has been a PCC above 0 at our club since May though, there have definitely been days that would have warranted it.

FixdePitchmark

I don't think PCC will be enough at them levels for irish conditions.

But again..we Irish are not willing to accept 8 rounds out of 20 won't count .

Probably a fantastic representation of our natural competitive nature and die hard effort when we hit course.

But WHS is not really a Roy Keane ..Katie McCabe system...more a ..jump in a Cart and drink a few beers system..

OEP

I think WHS is a good system. It's a different system, and I think people need to stop thinking that it is supposed to replicate the old system when it's not. It's a more accurate reflection of how you're playing at that point in time - your handicap can come down very quickly but also go up just as quick if scores start dropping out and you're not replacing them. It also makes me less likely to give up on a bad round as it could end up being my 8th best score in the future, so I'll want to limit how much my handicap can increase.

FixdePitchmark

It is a good system - but the Irish are mad.

Find every loophole, flaw , hidden door. And will use it in some way.

8 rounds don't count - just play honest see where you end up and that is the golfer you are.

Strawberry HillBilly

Am I mistaken or is it that 8 rounds do count.....12 don't ?

Miley Byrne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930154#Comment_120930154

You are not mistaken. You are 100% correct. Previous poster has it wrong

Golfgraffix

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120928690#Comment_120928690

Agree but what has that to do with the PCC not working as it should ?

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930154#Comment_120930154

Yes..sorry spot on..

And should make people realise that 12 will drop off ...every round isn't the end of the world and PCC is not going to normalise every wild day on the course..

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930623#Comment_120930623

It was a reply to a previous comment about the system.

Who says it's not working correctly?

Rikand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930732#Comment_120930732

Anyone who plays on a wet day in Ireland and there is no PCC for the day

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930814#Comment_120930814

Come back with the numbers and then you can actually try to understand if it's working or not - ie scores and handicaps. I just looked, I've had PCC applied in 6 of my 22 rounds this year - and that's starting in May. Clearly there are reasons it's not being applied on the days people think they should, the scores aren't as bad as you think they are.

Russman

Its a funny one, I've no doubt that the formula is being applied correctly but I think there's probably a flaw in the logic somewhere.

At the weekend we had a singles, in a howling gale on Saturday. 100 entries, there were 3 net scores one shot better than par, 6 net scores equal to par and 16 NRs. No PCC applied. Like I say, I've no doubt the system calculated it correctly but most anyone who played would have said there would be a PCC, or in the old days, that it would be reduction only or at least a CSS well above the SSS.

I'm not convinced the PCC algorithm takes enough account for GB & I conditions were you can have vastly different playing conditions hour to hour as opposed to the US etc. were conditions are broadly speaking much more predictable and benign. Not saying they can't have bad weather, just we're generally more exposed.

Just checked my own record and I've 19 rounds in this year and there was a PCC in two of them. Not sure if that means anything but I would have thought there would be more, given I play on a hilly course that's exposed to the weather.

spacecoyote

In my last 20 scores, which goes back to September 2022 (I really don't get enough qualifying golf in) I have 2 rounds with a PCC, one in a near hurricane down in Rosslare where 1 woman broke 36 points on the day. Easily a 3 club wind.

The other in Greystones at an open when the conditions were fine for playing but scoring must have been low with a lot of away players out?

Golfgraffix

Numbers are in the 1st post. I’m 99% sure it is not being applied evenly across all courses and all rounds.

bakerbhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930843#Comment_120930843

last Friday out of 31 in tier 1. 3 equalled or bettered 36 pts . no pcc

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120931828#Comment_120931828

Handicaps are relevant though. It's the same algorithm for everyone. Looking at 36 points is probably the first mistake. It looks at each player's deviation from their own mean, which will be lower than 36. Higher handicaps will have much larger deviations, so are less impactful.

Golfgraffix

I think one of the issues is that the calculation does not include card that does not have 18 full scores. I think this includes pickups but i cant be sure. And as often happens here on really bad days, players walk in with maybe a hole or two to still play.

blue note

As in it doesn't include cards where a player picked up on a hole? Or it doesn't include cards where a player didn't play all 18? If the latter I can kind of understand it, but people are definitely more likely to walk in if they're not going well, especially in bad weather, so the scores would certainly be skewed. If the former that's crazy. But that surely can't be the case.

OEP

I had another PCC yesterday, not at my home course either.

Rikand

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120937894#Comment_120937894

Let me know where you are playing next and I'll play there too 😉

spacecoyote

To be fair it doesn't seem to be getting applied either direction in my place at all.

Under the old system we would often get a CSS of 37 points if we got warm dry weather in the summer but I haven't seen anything other than 0 at my home place in general

callaway92

Best nett score in qualifiers for captains prize in Cahir Park 1 under over the 2.5 days of qualifying

PCC 0

Not having that - People that made playoffs/winning a big comp off scores that actually brought their handicap upwards rather than downwards with some making playoffs with +4 and +5 nett

fungie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120948883#Comment_120948883

Handicaps can go up from scores differences lower than your index (beating your handicap) under the new system so that doesn't mean much anymore.

callaway92

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949331#Comment_120949331

But some of the rounds worse than handicaps were unreal. Lack of PCC added doesn’t show how good they were

fungie

There's definitely a lack of transparency around the PCC alright. Or can I just not find where they publish the methodology?

slingerz

Yellow wind warning at the weekend and no PCC in our place

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949331#Comment_120949331

Ah would you stop! We all understand that. But the chances of the best score over two days being one better than handicap and the overall scores being no worse than normal are fairly close to zero. And this happens all the time. Clearly there are times when it is not being used for whatever reason.

fungie

Another weekend with no PCC.

In my course on Saturday the place was very wet and very windy due to storm. Many trees and branches were down, was kinda shocked it wasn't cancelled.

The scoring was much worse than normal so was expecting a PCC of at least 1. Lo and behold, PCC = 0.

There needs to be greater transparency around the algorithm. For instance, how many standard deviations from expected to get PCC of 1, 2, 3. Or similar measures.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121006592#Comment_121006592

Were there many low handicap players playing? I have a feeling it's weighted to their scores

fungie

19 players in the category 1 division

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007247#Comment_121007247

could you post what pts they got ..

fungie

I'm not posting whole list.

0 scores if 40 or greater

2 scores greater than 36

1 36 points

1 35

7 between 30 - 32

8 less than 30

FixdePitchmark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121009233#Comment_121009233

Below - was posted by Rikand (he was not sure it was right) but in your comp greater than 10 % - 2 of the 19 scored better than 36pts - this is enough for no PCC.

Again - we just don't seem to want to accept that a wild day during and after a storm is not best to be applying an adjustment / forcing that round into your WHS - the PCC is very conservative - as we have 12 rounds that will be discarded in your 20.

Irish golfers will just have to accept that WHS is giving you an average and tries to not adjust rounds - as it does not want to be an adjusted average - as you are already removing all the outlier days in the 12.

I think it is a carry over of people thinking we are in old system.

I accept the system is very conservative - particularly for Irish conditions - but there is no way you have 12 days out of 20 that are abnormal. So the 8 rounds are the key to focus on.

From Rikand. - but was from his memory

10% of single figure golfers beat 36 points - NO PCC

10% of single figure golfers in range 34-36 - PCC 1 (other 90% worse than 34)

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120948883#Comment_120948883

I scored 74 nett..horrible day..wind ferocious..WHS index went from 16.9 to 16.7 because of it as it was one of my 8 out of 20.

bakerbhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121012705#Comment_121012705

Careful Bobster. Your already 3 shots down for killarney .👹