Doping megathread - I can't even think of a witty tagline

loyatemu

I can't remember if it was in 7 Deadly Sins or Tyler Hamilton's book but someone associated with Armstrong (maybe Hamilton himself) said that they thought EPO and blood doping were still pretty widespread, they were just better at avoiding detection through microdosing etc.

lissard

Interesting to see Rhys Webb picking up a 4 year ban for human growth hormone. Reported last week with no real attention in rugby circles. He's not a nobody - he was Wales starting scrum half for about a decade. I'd say top level rugby is swimming in PEDs.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/10/rhys-webb-four-year-ban-rugby-union-wales-biarritz

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122394872#Comment_122394872

It is kinda "they would say that, wouldn't they?" They're creating some facade spending so much money, and time away from their families in the case of riders if they could microdose and get the same benefits as all the time they're at altitude.

Part of the progress is all the developments delayed through the EPO era, where it was just injections and bloodbags rather than exploiting every last bit from legal training/ nutrition/ science. But on the other hand, Mauro Gianetti 

dahat

Premier League players taking pain killing injections to "get" through the game or tennis payers hobbling into the changing room then coming back out like there was never an injury.

There is no common standard enforced no matter what list WADA publish.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395111#Comment_122395111

Hadn't heard of that at all, which is much more shocking that the failed test itself. I skim through the sports news every day and hadn't seen any report of it. Almost as though it's being buried, or that nobody wants to have to ask the hard questions of the sport they cover/ follow. Not a peep on the likes of OTB in their news summary on the radio. As you say, this isn't small news or a nobody. It says it all really.

It would be great if either a) we (the sporting public) could drop the charade of pretending ball sports are clean or b) apply the same standards to athletics and cycling and drop the cynicism.

I completely get why cycling fans are quick to be suspicious/ cynical… its kind of our right given the recent past. But the lecturing from the pulpit by everyone else with no interest in the sport (have to laugh at the RTE/ OTB lads trying to pronounce the names of various cycling stars this time of year) is pretty grating.

cletus

Folks, WADA don't test every pro sport. They have published an Anti Doping Charter that sporting governing bodies can sign up to.

Testing is done by National Anti Doping Agencies, International Federations, or events organisers.

So, to take rugby as an example, World Rugby signed up to the charter, but they are wholly and totally responsible for the testing that takes place (or not, as the case may be).

Per their own Code;

As provided in the Code, World Rugby shall be responsible for conducting all aspects of Doping Control.

The UFC had a contract with USADA (the American national anti doping agency) for a number of years. They cancelled it last year and, as the major events organiser, they now conduct their own testing.

Essentially, each sporting federation can decide how stringently they are applying the rules.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395913#Comment_122395913

Nobody's criticising WADA here though. It's pretty clear where FIFA's and UEFA's primary focus i$… suits them down to the ground to keep any discussion of doping, let alone enforcement and detection, well and truly under the carpet. And possibly lay down a concrete floor on top of that carpet. With teams of lawyers siting on top of the concrete floor.

cletus

It was more to point out the reason for the discrepancies that people are seeing in the testing across sports. The UCI have contracted ITA to do their testing. The UCI would have told them the level of testing they require.

Regarding the perception of other sports, it's a combination of fans who are deluded and believe that doping isn't rife across the board, and fans that just don't care. Most sports fans, particularly ball sports, have no clue how the testing protocol works.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122394736#Comment_122394736

The testing is very very likely all done in the same labs regardless of sport, so if we're blaming the testing then it's because we want to believe there's something wrong elsewhere.

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122396713#Comment_122396713

To be picky, its the analysis that's done in the labs. Testing will include the entire process including athlete targeting, sample collection and results processing.

For example, if you are some mega-bucks sporting organisation and think some of your stars are dodgy AF, but they are good earners for the organisation, you might decide to not select them for testing, or let them know in advance that they will be tested, or not act on an Adverse Analytical Finding. The lab itself would be an innocent party in this.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122396804#Comment_122396804

This exactly. When World Rugby (as an example) decide to run testing, they can decide who gets tested, how often, and how much notice is given.

The external testing agencies are normally non governmental, not-for-profit organisations that are contracted to do a job. The group hiring them can decide what level of testing they require.

G1032

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122395550#Comment_122395550

Nope. Not a word on OTB. They were quick enough to report Picollo's ban however. Wouldn't suit them boys to report any scandal unless it was cycling or athletics

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122396713#Comment_122396713

As someone else said, it’s the same analysis. The same testing structure isn’t in place.

Bambaata

Fuentes back in the news, I wonder will OTB even mention this or is it getting a bit close to their soccer crowd with all the allegations of the Spanish soccer teams supposedly connected but that the Spanish judge wouldn't let be released

https://www.sportschau.de/investigativ/geheimsachedoping/schatten-ueber-olympia-1992-fuentes-beschreibt-spanisches-doping-system%2Cfuentes-spanisches-doping-system-100.html

Macy0161

Hard to see (the absolute legend) Victor Campenaerts spending 9 weeks at altitude, half of it just him and his pregnant girlfriend, if there was some easier method.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122398881#Comment_122398881

Pep's failed tests never get mentioned, so I doubt it.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122398881#Comment_122398881

The energy levels of that Spanish team were on another level.
I remember Costa Rica at the 2016 World Cup being similar.

Not reached those levels before or since.

Would not surprise me if they had 'help'.

Spanish judge protecting Spanish prestige.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122399351#Comment_122399351

It would surprise me if they didn't. If subjected to the same testing and analysis rigours as pro cyclists, it would surprise me if most elite rugby players didn't fail.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122399575#Comment_122399575

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122398881#Comment_122398881

What sort of help are you thinking?

The logistics alone of getting 26 players, playing in 5 different countries for 14 different clubs on some sort of doping regime are pretty **** difficult.

Harder still when there were a lot of other players at other clubs also in consideration for the squad and the final squad would not have all been together once at any point prior to their coming together for the tournament as some players were not there for previous squads due to injury, suspension etc.

If it were at club level, I'd believe it, but not for an international team personally.

I don't think there was anything all that impressive about their energy. Everyone got at least a game, they constantly used the bench well. They pressed really well but not with the dying on the feet intensity of klopps Dortmund and early Liverpool teams. Only one Spanish player featured in the top 10 players for km covered prior to the final. They were a really disciplined team tactically, positionally and incredibly efficient.

International football ebbs and flows a lot too. There were large periods of every Spain game wwre they could play at a jogging pace at most because they protect the ball so well.

Look at England on the other hand, who had poor use of the squad, consistently picking the same 10-11 and played a lot of extra time. They had lots of players covering an enormous amount of ground and wasting energy inefficiently.

People draw their own conclusions based on what they want to believe though and perceived biases towards their favored sports and athletes. I just don't see how it happens for a national team in a sport where national team squads spend so little time together in the grand scheme of things, and players don't know if they'll even be in the squad.

Large bottle small glass

The power estimates are very accurate

https://x.com/CyclingGraphs/status/1812939837114315096

"Yes, I would almost go so far as to say. The others on the team said that someone has estimated how many watts per kilo we have entered. To put it bluntly, it is very accurate" Jonas Vingegaard July 15

https://lanternerouge.com/2024/07/19/second-greatest-performance-of-all-time-by-pogacar-tour-de-france-2024-stage-19/

Some fairly sobering graphs there. Current top riders are wiping the floor with blood and EPO cheats with hematocrit levels as high as 60%.

If training techniques, nutrition is accounting for this we'd see similar in 5000, 10000m, marathon etc etc.

All over seen by the great Mauro Gianetti under the moral direction of princes of Abu Dhabi.

On Spain I've no doubt there is widespread doping in professional soccer but that's not necessarily the reason they won all their games. They are really good at retaining the ball and have better technique and cohesion than the other top.

Soccer is a much nicer game to play when you control the play rather than being the donkeys chasing shadows trying to get the ball back.

loyatemu

IIRC 50% was the magic hematocrit number LA's riders were ordered to keep below to avoid arousing suspicion. Presumably Pogacar and co. are having their hematocrit levels regularly measured?

So is it reasonable to be able to produce these sorts of performances (in terms of W/kg or VO2 max) with a genuinely low hematocrit level, how do the measures relate to each other?

G1032

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404268#Comment_122404268

The power numbers are off the charts. I'm 73kg or thereabouts. What Pog is doing is the equivalent of me riding 515 watts for 40 minutes 2.5 weeks into a GT🤣🤣.

UAE and Pog are taking the p!ss. It's just ridiculous at this stage.

G1032

It's long been accepted that the limits of human capabilities, riding clean, are about 6.4w/kg for 40 minutes. They are blowing these numbers out of the water all of a sudden. Where is it all going to end?

Morris Garren

... and he doesn't even look tired. Imagine that.

G1032

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404999#Comment_122404999

He literally looks fresher than someone rolling in home after a Sunday spin

Raoul Duke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404876#Comment_122404876

I've seen this written a few times. How sure are you/we of it's accuracy?

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122405169#Comment_122405169

We can't, it was an estimation from years ago based on back of the envelope calculations. It used to be 6.2 and before that it was 5.8. We can set average person limits but there will always be genetic anomalies who are found at the right time and will go above anything we estimated as possible.

Raoul Duke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122405310#Comment_122405310

Thanks. That's what I figured.

G1032

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122405169#Comment_122405169

So I'm basing it on what Ross Tucker said in a recent podcast. Vingegaard has gone on record as saying the estimates are pretty spot on and they also use data from other riders Derek Gee and use that in estimates too. They reckon they are accurate to within a percent or 2

Edit. Sorry. It was the 6.4w/kg you were talking about. I don't know. I've just heard it so many times over the last few years I assumed it was accurate. Never hear it contradicted.

Large bottle small glass

https://sportsscientists.com/2010/07/cycling-performance-what-is-possible/

From 2011

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122404866#Comment_122404866

Its not remotely the equivalent.