National Beef Welfare Scheme (NBWS).

Fotish

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120980955#Comment_120980955

Once the application is submitted ,no changes can be made.

You won't get paid if you don't carry out the requirements.

Why are feeding organic meal ?

Diarmuid B

In the organics scheme so better follow them rules at least😅

Fotish

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120983845#Comment_120983845

Ah, the scheme doesn’t specify how much meal you should feed, so there is a lot of room to manoeuvre.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120975705#Comment_120975705

Have you got the results back yet, or any idea how long it takes

Fotish

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120989258#Comment_120989258

No results yet, it’s a week since the samples were taken.

no bill from vet yet .

minerleague

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120980955#Comment_120980955

See in journal dept have reduced penalty if you dont bother with IBR testing part of scheme ( 10% instead of 15% )

Sugarbowl

Couldn’t you say they were weaned by Nov 1st and suck them away? Who is to know?

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120990633#Comment_120990633

Same could be said for spreading slurry in December and calling it dairy washings. Same could be said for a lot of things. It's a poorly thought out scheme with a penalty for those that wean after Nov 1st.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120975705#Comment_120975705

I be a bit pissed. The taking of the blood should be no more than 4 euro per head. If he was out for the test there is no call out fee. After that it's the IBR test fee.

Herd test is here soon. Big issue with unskulled cattle in marts this year, so I have about 10-12 to be done but I expect only to have to pay the skulking charge

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120992803#Comment_120992803

I thought someone on here said horns on cattle are OK at the mart now. They just have to be penned separately.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120992898#Comment_120992898

They are a pain in the hole when finishing as well as in pens. I have bought about 10-15 and I am thinking of getting them skulled the day of the herd test.

greysides

The weather is not really conducive to skulling at the moment... too many flies around.

Anto_Meath

By talking to vets they don't seem to have any information on the ibr testing. Looks like the department didn't consult them....

Sami23

Is it in the T&C's that weaning has to be done by November as think it was mentioned here ?

I can't see it in the T&C's myself. If it is I'll be giving this scheme a miss as April calving here so don't usually wean until Christmas.

I was going to just do the meal feeding and take the 10% penalty on the IBR.

Hard Knocks

For this scheme do we pay the vet and get the full reimbursement later, or is it like the genomic tagging where the lab/vet are paid by the Dept and we get the payment less this cost

charolais0153

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993927#Comment_120993927

you pay the vet and you get the money when the scheme pays out

Fotish

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993927#Comment_120993927

The farmer pays the vet and the Dept pays the farmer.

The Deptartment pays €300 for 20 bovines so there should be some profit for the farmer , hopefully the vet

doesnt charge the full €300.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993701#Comment_120993701

Instead of venting here, I emailed the scheme bws@agriculture.gov.ie raising the issues around later calving herds that wean later, not being eligible for the scheme.

We have to remember that approx 1 million calves we registered from late March to the end of June. Sucklers would make up a big number of these and no facilitiating these is a serious oversight by DAFM. The more emails they get the more they have to consider change going forward. I would encourage others similar to my system that are not eligible to do so

I got a reply that it was being passed up the line and will be replied to.

Lime Tree Farm

Looks like the scheme is from 1 July 22 to 30 Jun 23 reference period. A late calf born here is included in the scheme, well weaned at this stage.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995747#Comment_120995747

It's the late spring 2023 born are the issue. If they follow the same dates next year, calves born April to June 2023 will not be eligible.

We have to remember the key metric that the Icbf uses is the 200 day weight as the standard this is where they see the median weaning age. So we have a welfare scheme which is promoting weaning of suckler calves from 120 days to 180 days. Some fantastic joined up thinking

charolais0153

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995911#Comment_120995911

i cant believe the work some of ye are making with this scheme . All you have to do is bloodtest 20 cattle and have a receipt for meal . if you dont want to bloodtest the cattle or buy the meal dont join the scheme

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995911#Comment_120995911

So you buy the ration as per the scheme dates and wean when it suits you. If it dose not suit you forget about it. Lads always see the problem not the solution.

Talking to a kad today that will have a herd test in ten days time. He was all over the place about the IBR. All he has to do is check if his herd test date will be applicable. If not move the test on. Get the vet to take the bloods.

If it suits use it if not do not

dohc turbo2

Neighbour did bloods for scheme. 2 weeks ago while testing, wasn't a problem

Sami23

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995680#Comment_120995680

But my question still stands - is it in the T&C's that weaning has to be done by November ?

I was asking a question and not venting anything

Fotish

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120999044#Comment_120999044

To answer you specific query --- it is not in the terms and conditions that weaning must be done by November.

My advice would be to get the blood testing done ,note the weaning dates and keep your meal feeding receipts.

amens

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995911#Comment_120995911

Why do you have late born calves in the first place? Calves should be born in february and early march in a six week period so that they can be all treated as one group and take advantage of the full grazing season. The department is only incentivizing best practice by rewarding those that are doing things right. Remove the bull or stop using AI after a certain date and there will be no late calves.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121001821#Comment_121001821

I'm a bit different, on heavy ground and only start calving on April 1st. Have done it for the past 8 years after an outbreak of crypto and rota together. It means outdoor calving, no bedding, livelier calves and more importantly less labour. It's still compact calving. Less than 6 weeks for the past number of years.

Breeding started the 20th June and has finished already. So I ask the question am I doing it right compared to someone calving now, or October or December or February. The scheme is open for calves born from July to the end of June, but it's the later ones that are being penalised

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120999044#Comment_120999044

It's says all actions have to be completed by November 1st. That's meal feeding pre and post weaning coupled with the IBR testing

This is page 10 of the terms and conditions

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121001873#Comment_121001873

I dont think it explicitly states calves need to be fully weaned by the 1st Nov

893bet

From my reading of the terms it’s just the blood test that is required by 1st November. That date is a called out in the IBR section. But not in the meal feeding section.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121001945#Comment_121001945

My reading is the opposite as it mentions actions in the plural sense. And the scheme has 2 actions to undertake, meal feeding and IBR. Clarity from DAFM would be helpful

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121001973#Comment_121001973

If you look at the individual section the 1st of November is mentioned in the IBR sectio specifically. No date is mentioned in the meal feeding section just that meal is need 2 weeks before and 4 weeks after.

I had thought the same as you initially but logically it’s just the IBR as from a welfare point of view weaning early for a scheme makes no sense even.

Agree clarification might come, I might apply and just do the meal feeding. It will buy a 1/3 of a tonne of organic feed……. But sher every little helps.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121002011#Comment_121002011

The above image is from the application section, which is followed by the individual actions in more depth.

If, we here in boards are having difficulties in making sense , clarification is badly needed at national level. Similar to you I would consider it,

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121002112#Comment_121002112

Reading the conditions of a department scheme requires legal training to properly interpret it. I haveinga a similar issue with the TAM's scheme at present in it's interpretation.

However I expect that the reality is if your paper work is correct ( receipts for ration purchased before November) you will get paid unless you get an inspection on November 2nd which is unlikely.

Actually this scheme will be similar to the silage scheme the inspections will be afterwards. Even with April/May born calves I would have weaning completed by November and use any extra condition on the cows to save wintering costs and molly coddle the weanlings to achieve targets. At weight of 250+ ( which they should be) milk from cows should be supplying limited thrive.

The only real sting would be if you normally sell off the cow in late November/ December.

On your system of late calving, I tend to agree with it. With rota and crypto, the hassle of indoor calving, the cost if straw in non tillage areas, the requirements for quality silage if cows are feeding calves indoors for 6-10+ wees and the low profitability of sucklers anyway it probably makes little difference margin wise to your system if you take roto and crypto costs and extra work into account

Jack C

From terms and conditions;

"Twenty samples are considered to provide an adequate estimate of within herd prevalence, which in turn informs the next steps in decision making at herd level –for example whether an IBR control programme is necessary for the herd.

The collected blood sample from the snapshot samples must be submitted to an ISO 17025 accredited laboratory for testing of bovine serum by ELISA for IBR gE antibodies. The snapshot sample will be transmitted to the ICBF database where they will be available on a herd level dashboard to the farmer and PVP(where the farmer has previously granted access to the PVP). The PVP will provide professional interpretation of the results that will be fed back to the herdowner"

Does this mean that the vet takes 20 samples but then only sends one pooled sample away to lab. If so, then the lab part of the cost shouldn't be much.

Diarmuid B

No it’s twenty individual samples and they’re all tested separately, there’s no pooling of bloods

Katie 2018

Got prices of what it's going to cost me.60euro vet cost.5euro per sample.5euro lab cost.have 20 animals to do so il be getting 40euro out of whole thing🤑🤑

bogman_bass

Tried to sign up there. Selected which scheme I wanted but can’t click anything after that

anybody else have a similar problem?

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121003256#Comment_121003256

You know nothing about sucklers. Stick to what you know. I calve 20 cows in Jan and Feb. 14 bales of straw. No crypto or rota nor do I vaccinate for either. Cows and calves out in March.

charolais0153

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121014317#Comment_121014317

march and april is when you get the scours in my experience . wouldnt like to have too many cows out in march in the west of ireland

Anto_Meath

@charolais0153 that's it exactly. I live in North Meath but travel the 32 countries for work. There is some difference in farming conditions from Cork & Limerick to the likes of Donegal to Fermanagh.. there is at least a 2 month longer winter as you head North or West.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121014464#Comment_121014464

Sheds and wet sh1t on cows are the biggest factors with scours. If you can reduce this or eliminate it you will have very little issues. I went for years calving in February and march without problems. Then over the course of 2 years it built to become a massive problem. Imagine losing 30% of annual calves in a week, dropping the vet €2k in a week for dripping and treating calves at every hour of the night and day. A combo of crypto and rota is something I wouldn't even wish on my worst enemy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121014317#Comment_121014317

Bass commented on seeing merit in some of the later calving systems. 30 cows calved here, 1 bale of straw used in total on them, less shed space to calving pens. No meal to cows as they are on grass, no need for good quality silage for cows for most of the winter. Breeding taking place in June, when cows have heat on their backs and on a good plane of nutrition. As we all know with sucklers it's all about serious cost control and preventing any losses is the key to profit.

You can be only lucky for so long with scours, but when that tsunami hits, it's rough, and boy you won't forget it ever. What I'm doing with April may calving since that serious scour, maybe unorthodox to some, but it's working really well with less vet costs, less losses and more enjoyment and a better bottom line

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121014898#Comment_121014898

suppose it really depends on what you’re after or your system allows. I’m pedantic about having sheds clean. Calve in January and February. Sheds power washed when cows/calves go out. Power washed again in December before calving season begins. Lime and disinfectant used. Calving pens are power washed at every interval during calving. Limed and disinfectant used throughout again. Make sure calves get colostrum within max 2 hours of calving but usually I tupe calves after 30 minutes and walk away knowing calf is safe. Calves get ceviduril dose at 21 days. Cows and calves turned out to bird cover on 16 March (last year didn’t allow it but most years do). Scour is non-existent thanks be to God

my aspiration is to get cattle to 500kgs dw under 30 months, killing off the grass with minimal meal. An April born calf won’t achieve this and it takes a good March one to do so.

every single farm and farmer is different. Not everyone is right. Not all are wrong either.

bogman_bass

Sign up for the AHI parasite TASAH consult and do it at the same time. Let AHI pay the call-out fee

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121014317#Comment_121014317

Dunedin if you had bother to read the post I replied to buy @mr.stonewall all I said was I did not disagree with what he was doing in dealing with crypto and roto, reducing HIS costs in a low margin enterprise and HIS workload.

Actually I gave no advice I just commented.

The latest trend in Boards on F&F is attack the poster not debate/reply/counter his post about what he is post. You must have had a bad day last night or the moon is as in the wrong phase for you.. I will link my post and Mr.Stonewalls you replied to so you can read both.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121003256#Comment_121003256

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121001863#Comment_121001863

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121014989#Comment_121014989

The problem (albeit a first world one) with the change in board’s layout is ya can’t hone in a particular bit. And that bit was………..

With rota and crypto, the hassle of indoor calving, the cost if straw in non tillage areas, the requirements for quality silage if cows are feeding calves indoors for 6-10+ wees and the low profitability of sucklers anyway it probably makes little difference margin wise to your system if you take roto and crypto costs and extra work into account

as I’ve said many times, every farm is different. But sucklers have been quite profitable for me over the past few years. The money in sucklers is in the weight but without a ton of meal in every finishing animal.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121014950#Comment_121014950

It's what works on farm and taking snipits that you think can be handy and could work on your own farm. I aim to kill these April born stock at 22&24 mths at an average of 380kg DW.

I too had been anal about power washing pens, even steam cleaning them twice at turnout and again before housing, cleaning out every pen before a new cow would calves down, keeping creep areas cleaned, bedded and dry. All this and stuck with the hassle of a serious scour outbreak for 2-3 years. It works here now as there is dairy calves reared here aswell,completely different shed, but the heavy lifting is done on them before a cow calves

We can all agree the safest place to avoid scours is outside

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015028#Comment_121015028

You again quoted me out of context. You left out the first half sentence in the paragraph. Here is the complete paragraph

''On your system of late calving, I tend to agree with it. With rota and crypto, the hassle of indoor calving, the cost if straw in non tillage areas, the requirements for quality silage if cows are feeding calves indoors for 6-10+ wees and the low profitability of sucklers anyway it probably makes little difference margin wise to your system if you take roto and crypto costs and extra work into account ''

Note ''on his system '' as you say you are pedantic about cleaning sheds and clean at least once in mid winter as well as cleaning down calving pens. Some farmers calving pens are older sheds. I suspect you are full-time or virtually full-time, you have the hand to finish cattle and you have farm size to make it possible.

Totally differ to a farmer in heavier ground with a five month ( and maybe longer sometimes or cows being housed after the first shower in late September) winter. Costs in such systems are horrendous.

M

Straw required could be 2-3 times your per cow and add in the cost of it. There is approaching a 20 euro cost difference between straw in Wexford and the counties along the west coast from Donegal to Kerry and probably above it in parts of counties like Kerry, Clare, Sligo and Mayo with no tillage area

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015148#Comment_121015148

60 acres, part time average 10-12 hours per week on farm.

mr.stonewall

Got a reply back from the Dept regarding meal feeding before Nov 1st

Straight from the horse mouth

"The 01 November date is for the IBR testing, not for the meal feeding. The meal feeding action must just comply with annex 2 of the terms and conditions which is to meal feed the calves 4 weeks pre weaning and 2 weeks post weaning"