2023 RWC Buildup, Squads, Fixtures 'etc'

Rjd2 · 22-09-2023 3:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141293#Comment_121141293

Reducing the teams in the world cup is basically just killing rugby in those nations, they get very little support as it is and you take away the carrot of the rugby world cup then they are doomed. Its very silly how these sides boil so much piss, yes they are not good but its only a few games every 4 years you have to endure the "torture" of watching these nations mixing it with the big boys, netflix exists ffs.

Its not a world cup without minnows anyway, it would just be the same teams playing each other and its fun to see new teams come through and see how they play against the stronger nations. They rarely win but even when they are competitive its very memorable, see Uruguay v France.

I don't see any upside for getting rid of them whether its from their POV or even the spectators as plenty of people do enjoy watching them in the world cup and those that don't can surely find something else to with their time.

Jacovs · 22-09-2023 5:36am

Anyone have any advice?

Going to a braai tonight at friends house, his missus is Namibian. How do I keep a straight face?

pickarooney · 22-09-2023 6:27am

Dupont operated last night for an eye socket fracture (presumably, no confirmation on the severity). Probably 4 months of no contact sport.

His World Cup definitely looks over and the Olympics doesn't look great at this point.

Pete_Cavan · 22-09-2023 6:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141293#Comment_121141293

I agree with this. WR should be mandating the Tier 1 sides play the weaker teams as part of tours. Even if it is only the wider squad players who are used, it will still be exposing the other team to high quality professional players. The costs would be low as the Tier 1 team will have a squad of over 30 players with them. WR could cover some of the cost on the basis that the Tier 1 squad and coaches do some training sessions with local schools/clubs to promote the game.

The Tbilisi Cup was a great tournament, a version of it should be revived but hosting rotating between Georgia/Romania/Spain/Portugal. Having a festival of rugby in their country would be help grow interest in the sport in those countries. Tier 1 nations should be encouraged to send a team every few years at least. Again, WR should be covering some of the cost.

pixelburp · 22-09-2023 6:39am

I totally agree with those arguing for the right of these Tier 2+ nations to compete; while the parallel with Japan is a great example of what a country can do with the right amount of exposure and experience. That match against South Africa came from graft and those 100 point beatings. Namibia are a small, poor country that's mostly desert - but they got here by being the top African side fair and square (ignoring South Africa of course)

The fundamental problem is: Japan is a very rich, stable country, with preexisting connections with the developed world ....while the sheer size, endemic corruption and poverty of Africa is a giant stumbling block for development of any economy let alone sport. How do you grow a game where Namibia <=> Kenya is a significant voyage? AFAIK there is no pro team/ league like South America or the Pacific Islands are developing. While COVID was itself a huge problem, it's well documented how many fewer games these small teams got.

I had a quick look at the 2023 qualification and Namibia romped through the tournament, beating Kenya 39-0 to qualify in the final. they got thumped by Namibia? And they then went to the final qualifying tournament where Kenya got even more thumped 85-0 by fellow minnows Portugal. Even the US put about 50 points on these guys. The disparity is very obvious here, even among other small fry.

Clearly South American rugby is ascendent at the moment and give it the time Japan got we could see some regular "shocks" doled out by Uruguay or Chile - but African rugby seems not have moved an inch. 24 teams for 2031 is a great idea but AFAIK there's no sign of an extra place for Africa right? I'd hope not, not unless some serious money gets injected (but then, into that goes the problems of corruption).

lawrencesummers · 22-09-2023 6:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121140786#Comment_121140786

That they need a proper coach and not the useless bluffer they have

Jacovs · 22-09-2023 6:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141424#Comment_121141424

I would argue Allister Coetzee is probably the best coach (on paper) that they have had in their history. He used to coach the WP/Stormers and then the Springboks (although admittedly he didnt do very well).

But he only started at Namibia 2 years ago, and in those 2 years they only played 10 games (including 3 of the current world cup games).

Thats also the only games they played since the last world cup. 7 Matches in 4 years is not much to go on, before a world cup.

lawrencesummers · 22-09-2023 6:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141430#Comment_121141430

Not only do they need a proper head coach but they need a proper head coach role not a part time one.

They need development and structures underage that will allow them to build.

He isnt the man for that and as a part time coach he wouldn't be able for that either.

There are clear and obvious things namibia need to do and a path thats well proven to follow for success if they can get the resources.

Strand1970 · 22-09-2023 7:09am

Maybe top 16 teams for the main WC and a secondary competition running in parallel at the tournament for the next 12 best teams. Secondary final played just before main final. Same as GAA where teams play at their level in the championship.

Jacovs · 22-09-2023 7:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141437#Comment_121141437

I dont think its that easy.

Namibia population of about 2,5 million, spread across 825 000 square km. Their capital, Windhoek is most densely populated and only has 500 000 population. Take away women, children, anyone over 35 years old, you arent left with many eligible men to choose from, not to mention those actually interested in rugby.

What needs to happen is the same as happened with Japan, Fiji, Argentina. Their national team should also be a club team, entered into competition at club level, even if it is the Currie Cup in SA. Which is what happened until 2019, the Welwitchias played Currie Cup. But again, with Covid and travel restrictions they havent played since 2019.

pickarooney · 22-09-2023 7:13am

Jaguares style team in the Currie Cup?

downtheroad · 22-09-2023 7:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141071#Comment_121141071

Ah good morning Mr. Pedantic. When do we ever play a Namibia, Uruguay, Portugal or Chile?

Fiji are Tier1.5, that game sells a few tickets and is the most appealing of a very bad bunch of games to the unions.

downtheroad · 22-09-2023 7:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141424#Comment_121141424

What would the score have been last night with Joe Schmidt or Andy Fatrell at the helm?75-0 instead? What is with all the excuses, is nobody brave enough to say Namibia cannot compete at this level and make a mockery of thie tournament.

Ribs1234 · 22-09-2023 7:20am

World rugby was warned that their weakness on high tackles (dealing with Farrell, and inconsistent cards in this world cup) increased the risk of more dangerous incidents. Now they have lost the World Cup host’s marquee player to exactly that, with the knock on impacts on promotion etc.

pickarooney · 22-09-2023 7:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141464#Comment_121141464

You are commended for your consistent bravery

downtheroad · 22-09-2023 7:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141468#Comment_121141468

Thank you 😊 It's like the emperor's new clothes in here, posters going out of their may to applaud what has been a below par tournament made up of several extremely below par teams.

pixelburp · 22-09-2023 7:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141461#Comment_121141461

I don't think you can lump Namibia in with Uruguay or Chile; it's reductive ignoring the relative trajectory of the teams who can and are developing. Not all these minnows are on the same path.

Africa 2 went into a broad qualifying mini-tournament already, from which came Portugal; Namibia got here by merit of being Africa 1 - so if there's a change, then arguably Africa 1 should also itself be put into a repechage with higher grade teams. Rather than a cull of total numbers. Their bye into the WC doesn't help them develop, going from Kenya and Ivory Coast straight into France and New Zealand.

Jacovs · 22-09-2023 7:33am

This weekend must be the most important of the pool stages.

Argentina vs Samoa

SA vs Ireland

Scotland vs Tonga

Wales vs Australia

downtheroad · 22-09-2023 7:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141484#Comment_121141484

The simple fact is there are a handful of decent teams in both hemispheres, and they have no interest in playing the crap teams. The unions, players and fans have no interest in Ireland v Uruguay in place of Ireland v New Zealand in an autumn international.

So nobody wants these games, but then there's calls for more games and opportunities for Tier2 nations after the consistent hammerings we have seen at this world cup.

Nermal · 22-09-2023 7:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141484#Comment_121141484

This is the answer. It's already a 'world' cup with the automatic qualifiers - there's no need to hobble qualifying to ensure geographic spread.

pixelburp · 22-09-2023 7:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141493#Comment_121141493

And thus rugby will whither on the vine from a lack of diversity of quality teams - unless things change. Either the sports tries to grow or it just locks itself into being forever niche. And it's not like the players or teams themselves are screaming for fewer games here, it's just the talking heads opining Uruguay et al Al having no value. Same as the 6 Nations and Italy talk. Elite teams only please.

There are no calls to play small teams, until there are. Teams improve like Argentina, Japan as already mentioned being a good example ..., but giving them the path to be better is the point and only the point. Would Japan have improved without those WCs to plan for? Our little rivalry with Argentina born from those famous WC matches.

Nobody's naive here as to the disparity but just closing the door to "crap" teams without recognising those trying to be better is self sabotage for the sport. Wouldn't you rather a WC where some Tier 2+ were genuine dark horses, capable of causing upsets? If yes, then how do we get there?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141496#Comment_121141496

Africa 1 needs a rethink, cos if Africa 2 is getting hammered by Portugal then clearly the first spot needs a more robust test to earn qualification.

FrancieBrady · 22-09-2023 7:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141414#Comment_121141414

That's genuinely terrible if true.

Larbre34 · 22-09-2023 7:58am

But how is Namibia there and not the US? A miles better team.

Increasing the RWC to 24 is not the solution, a final repêchage of the regional qualifiers is. Quality over quantity any day, not this facile shite.

downtheroad · 22-09-2023 8:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141530#Comment_121141530

What ever happened to the Wolfhounds? If World Rugby are actually serious about growing the game and not just token inviting ill prepared and ill equipped teams to the flagship tournament then they could mandate that each Tier1 nation when it goes on tour must bring a second squad who will only play Tier2 teams, simultaneously to the Tier1 games. It'll cost money, is there an appetite in the IRFU to spend money on a Wolfhounds team to travel to Uruguay and Chile while Ireland plays Argentina?

irelandrover · 22-09-2023 8:08am

Africa 1 should definitely be at the world cup. Having a geographic spread is very important. Otherwise you'd only have the best teams in the world which would be the 4 nations and tri nations.

You wouldn't see the big rise in South American rugby now if these teams weren't included. Even the rise of teams like Portugal and Spain is happening now as rugby is spreading outside the traditional areas.

My first memory of rugby is the world cup in 1991. Blocking teams from playing because they might lose by big scores and annoy a few posters seems incredibly short sighted.

pixelburp · 22-09-2023 8:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141546#Comment_121141546

Presumably, and better rugby heads will probably clarify and correct, the rugby calendar became too dense to accommodate B Team tours alongside the senior matches. The club game has expanded way out from those Wolfhounds tours of fadó, probably making it harder to take those players out of the provinces for the sake of a South American tour or two. Given the club games still happen during the 6 nations shows how condensed the calendar already is, the senior players taken out of clubs already an ask without adding ostensibly superfluous tours to the mix.

That and money, I suppose.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141560#Comment_121141560

Something has to change though, but god knows what. I do agree a geographic spread is needed, but African rugby is obviously in a deeply inferior place compared with, as you point out, nations on the rise like in S America or Portugal and Spain (well, if Spain ever managers to sort its player registration issues out; 2 world cups they've missed out on now).

South African cast-offs getting thumped every 4 years, pandemics notwithstanding, isn't helping African rugby. Better competitiveness sooner in their WC cycle might do though.

lawrencesummers · 22-09-2023 8:22am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141453#Comment_121141453

Samoa has a population of 250k in the middle of the south pacific and they are compeditive.

America has a population of 332 million and they didnt even qualify.

The path to success is investment in the proper structures. Countries like Ireland are reaping their rewards for these structures, countries like Italy to a lesser degree and countries like Georigia have made big steps.

Namibia dont have a full time head coach, that says a lot about their resources / ambition.

lawrencesummers · 22-09-2023 8:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141546#Comment_121141546

If individual countries are not willing to invest in the sport what are world rugby supposed to do about it?

Countries and federations need to drive their own growth and get help from world rugby in doing so, but its not up to the sports governing body to do all the work.