2023 RWC Buildup, Squads, Fixtures 'etc'

AdamD

The group stages were muck, a couple of good quarter finals doesn't save it. A tonne of blow outs and an entire half of the draw playing really low quality rugby.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121292454#Comment_121292454

Almost guarantees they'll be shite in the 6N.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121292515#Comment_121292515

They did well with what they had but huffing and puffing over the line today against a very modest Argentinian team tells me that its not just that England took a while to find their mojo, its also that they just aren't a very good team.

thebaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121292515#Comment_121292515

They have one of the biiggest, if not biggest , pools of players to pick from , yet play dreadful rugby , and were lucky to get over the line against both Samoa and Fiji, countrys the size of Bradford and Leeds - hardly a great achievement to me.

Dubinusa

Borthwick has probably saved his job. Fair play to them. 3rd isn't a bad finish for that team. Argentina are gash. Awful side.

Lucy8080

Is this final a step too far for the Saffas? Ireland/France must have taken them to the well. A bulked up England, with a shot to nothing semi-final , may have drained the well.

If the Boks win this game ,hats off! They have given wonderful thrills and spills to this tourney .

I just think that the last month or so (especially the last two weeks) have left them open to be overwhelmed by an A.B. team that will throw the ball around. S.A. may be a team whose physicality (justifiably) will start waning after half an hour(if not sooner).

N.Z.s name is on this cup I suspect , call it fate , and yet I still think France/S.A. and Ireland are better sides at the moment!

I wouldn't begrudge Fossie sailing off into the sunset with the trophy, especially after the personally brutal rollercoaster ride of the last few years!

I'm neither for N.Z. nor against S.A.! That said, if this was a cowboy film , I reckon Fossie is the beleaguered good guy facing down the baddie called Rassie.

The good guys always win ,don't they?

Jacovs

On the one hand I hope its a close game till the last minute, for the millions of fans' sake.

On the other hand I hope it is over as a contest maybe 5 minutes before the final whistle, for the person doing the engraving on the cup's sake.

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293212#Comment_121293212

I agree, just can’t see them reaching the energy & emotions to beat nz who have only played one hard match all tournament.

But if they do do it, surely go down as one of the best teams ever

Nz by 10

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121292628#Comment_121292628

They seem a very limited team and you'd have to imagine competent and varied squads will take them to the cleaners. This WC has probably given the sport a shot in the arm there, but with the 4 club collapses you'd worry it's just a plaster fix.

Augme

When people talk about NZ winning being good for the game I'm on the opposite side of the fence on that one. I'm up for SA for the good of the world cup. A NZ would be quite hollow considering their route to the final. They comfortably lost their first group match and then didn't have a difficult game until the quarters and then had a cake walk in the semi's. There's not a lot of positive things you can say about SA but they've been immense this tournament. Even in their group stage lose it was a real battle and they were in it until the end.

People give out about the length of the tournament but I do wish teams had two weeks until the semi's. Easy and loopsided draws are frustrating enough sonthat would at least go some way to mitigating it.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293286#Comment_121293286

I'm not sure about the good of the game argument. I don't think it matters at all but looking back, it's clear that New Zealand got a much easier passage to the final. They were easily beaten by France and as you and others have said, they had exceptionally easy games for the rest of the group phase.

Was their quarter final that tough? Both South Africa and New Zealand played Ireland but I think they played different versions. South Africa played an Ireland team who were playing with freedom, who made few errors except for line outs, who were cohesive and the defence stood up. The Ireland team who played New Zealand were filled with nerves, who made basic errors in attack and defence and their level was well below where they were previously.

It was still a close game but New Zealand struggled over the line really. They then had another cakewalk in the semi final. South Africa are the better team between the two. All things being equal, they would beat New Zealand but they've had a much tougher run. They put everything into beating France and the semi final was very taxing physically. It was basically 80 minutes of forwards smashing each other. For that reason, New Zealand have a great chance to win tonight in what will go down as a soft World Cup where the majority of top teams were well below the levels of past World Cup's.

OldRio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121292515#Comment_121292515

I honestly believe England cannot get worse.

TheRona

Some interesting points of view here. Did NZ really have a much easier route? I guess they had Italy rather than Scotland in the pools, but it's not NZ's fault that they made Argentina look bad when SA struggled against England. England and Argentina are of a similar level.

Ultimately if NZ win the RWC, they have beaten two different world #1 teams to get there, and SA will have done it without having to beat the top team at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293577#Comment_121293577

'Ultimately if NZ win the RWC, they have beaten two different world #1 teams to get there, and SA will have done it without having to beat the top team at all.'

That last line is a bit too deep for me this morning😅

TheRona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293745#Comment_121293745

NZ had to beat Ireland, who were world #1 at the time.

Now they have to beat SA, who are currently world #1.

SA only came up against the #1 ranked team once, and lost. It doesn't really fit the narrative that NZ have had it easy.

pickarooney

SA will have to beat themselves to be worthy winners?

TheRona

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293916#Comment_121293916

Hilarious. They may end up beating themselves by selecting a 7-1 split, so you might be on to something.

I don't think anyone has questioned whether SA would be worthy. People only seem to think that NZ aren't worthy due to them having a 'soft draw'.

Neil3030

Who's actually saying NZ had a soft draw?

They had to play the hosts (amongst the favorites for the tournament), and the #1 team in the world (at the time).

They had an easier SF but that's about it.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293331#Comment_121293331

Don't agree with this. While SA had a tougher route to the final, they lost a game and their only significant win had big question marks. They won v France due to a bad ref call, SA got a pen and 3 points when it should have been a pen and likely 3 points the other way. The game was far more than "80 minutes of forwards smashing each other" too.

They were flat v England, most likely due to the physical and emotional toll the quarter took from them. However they didn't rotate so that is on their coaches.

Ireland were well below par for the first 20 minutes v SA yet they didn't really take advantage. Despite Ireland's poor start and and SA having basically a new pack for the final 25 minutes, SA still do enough to win.

Ultimately bringing 7 forwards off the bench against Ireland wasn't enough to win them that game and I suspect it will be the same tonight. NZ were excellent v Ireland, better than SA were against us. I think NZs peak is actually higher than SAs, although SA generally perform at a more consistent level.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293974#Comment_121293974

The number one team in the World didn't play like the number one team in the World though. It was a tough draw on paper. Also, I know that it's looking at it in hindsight but the group games turned out to be irrelevant. France and Ireland probably put too much emphasis on winning their groups. New Zealand and South Africa put their emphasis on winning their quarter finals.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293997#Comment_121293997

Every team can point to referee calls. I was talking about the semi final which was clearly a forwards battle and them bashing each other. You're criticising their coaches for not rotating in a World Cup semi final?

As I said above, South Africa were aiming to win their quarter final with less emphasis on the group phase. That's something we can learn from. We will never know what impact the preceding games had on the outcome tonight, we'll only have opinions. I think if it was 2 fresh teams, South Africa would show that the record defeat they handed out to New Zealand before the tournament wasn't a fluke. I don't think anyone can argue against that New Zealand will be the fresher team tonight.

Neil3030

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121294125#Comment_121294125

But by no means did NZ have a soft draw.

fitz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121293577#Comment_121293577

I don't buy that NZ had an easier run either. They played their best rugby in years to beat us, with some of them having their best game in a black shirt (Sam Cane...don't think I've ever seen him play as well), and were still inches from probably losing. That game was a huge shift from them to win. Scotland didn't really make it that hard for SA in the pool, so both that and the QFs were more or less on par, imo. SAs drop off in performance had more to do with their SF being tougher than England being any good. NZ would have torn England apart, imo. As would SA if they didn't play such negative rugby themselves.

Larbre34

Score predictions for tonight??

Podge_irl

Argentina are not appreciably worse than England. NZ just handled business in the SF better.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121294144#Comment_121294144

I'm criticising their coaches for SA barely scrapping past a vastly inferior team in the semis. They could have made a few changes and still had a better starting 15 than England. If you have an issue with making changes late in a tournament then surely you disagree with the half backs selected for the final?

I don't think SA or NZ put less emphasis on the group stage, they both just lost but that didn't impede their progress. In truth, those group games were long enough before the quarters that they would have had little or no effect from tiredness.

If both teams were fresh, it'd be 50:50 tonight.

Clegg

It's gas that this is probably the most social media engagement anything World Cup related has received so far.

https://twitter.com/TraceyManus/status/1717161419588710729?t=lCTLjXVpYxcWYXSWKdE0ZQ&s=09

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121294228#Comment_121294228

Hmmm I think you mean the draw on paper. That was a tough draw but the draw in reality was quite soft. I think it's clear now that New Zealand were holding stuff back to try to peak at the business end of the tournament so the opening game against France didn't really matter. After that, they've beaten a really poor Italy, Namibia, Uruguay, Argentina and a very underpar Ireland. That's quite a soft draw.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121294339#Comment_121294339

New Zealand had an easier quarter final and semi final. Argentina are a good bit worse than England. Last night's game was a nothing match.

15-12 South Africa. If damp.

24-15 New Zealand if the slim chance of a dry evening over head happens.

So 15-12 SA!