Jobpath & Tus query

pamplemoussey

Hi there, I'm a full-time mum but posting on behalf of my sister who is incredibly stressed about the below and I wondered if anyone could shed any light:

The company she worked for 2 years ago went bust, meaning she was out of a job (redundant) so she applied for jobseekers and got it. The entire situation was so stressful she basically had a breakdown, since then has had severe anxiety and other health issues which mean that she can't do a lot of work that she'd be qualified for. Then she was signed up with Seetec, which added to the stress. We suggested she apply for Disability Allowance which is ongoing. However last week she got a letter saying she had to go in for a Jobpath meeting which terrified her as we all wondered was she going to have to go through Seetec for another year.

The meeting happened today, the woman conducting it was apparently horrific and making light of the health issues and how these "could not be barriers to work". The same woman also said my sister would qualify for being on Tus and she has to fill in a form authorising her details to be given to Tus for an interview.

From what I can see online, Tus doesn't seem like it will be helpful in terms of her work experience to date plus with my sister's health i think it will be impossible for her to even fo the 19hrs per week. Can she state on the form that she doesn't want her info to be sent to Tus for an interview, and are there valid reasons that this refusal could be accepted without penalizing her until the Disability application is sorted? Because I'm genuinely worried about her mental health after today.

Dempo1

Awful situation and all to often, horror stories about Seetac & Turas Nua appear on this forum.

My best Advice would be a discussion with her GP & see if she could go on Illness Benefit, if eligible. It's not means tested but has no other allowances attached.

A second option if she is up to it & one local, a CE scheme, basically 19.5 hrs a week, perhaps an admin roll etc.

I've just been awarded Disability Allowance, it's an extremely difficult payment to be awarded and anything up to 6 months to be approved.

Unfortunately anyone on a Jobseekers payment will be referred to a job activation program

Dempo

pamplemoussey

Thanks for this - I've just looked at the form, if she ticks the box saying she does not wish to be interviewed to take part in Tus, will that affect her current benefits?

I'm so glad to hear you did manage to get awarded Disability Allowance, I've heard how tough that process is.

Dempo1

No problem.

The problem is, she has very little option but to engage with Seetac & it may be recieved by the department she is not actively seeking work. They will likely call her in for a face to face. In the short term refusal to engage won't affect her payment but they can and may deduct part of her payment for non compliance although this is rare.

If she's very Anxious, wait and see if she is called in by the department & she can explain her situation but in the mean time, I feel she may need to consider illness benefit but she will need to chat with her GP Who issues a cert in order to get this payment

pamplemoussey

It's actually not Seetec this time - it seems to be Intreo.

I'm just looking at this letter again and it talks about agreeing that contact details can be given to Tus *and* can be sent to "other activation programmes in the department" which feels a bit like a GDPR contravention

Dempo1

So I'm some cases, larger Intero Centre's deal directly with Jobseekers & job activation measures. This letter suggests they intend to give your details to TUS, it's actually not a contravention of GDPR by asking can her details be passed on. Your sister can choose not to sign this form but she will be referred to a job activation program regardless. Worth pointing out, there are also further education options offered also.

pamplemoussey

My sister saw her gp this morning and I have spent hours trying to calm her since. Basically despite the fact that she genuinely has serious health issues that will prevent many forms of work, the GP refused to issue the required cert for illness benefit but not just that, the GP argued that they don't have to issue such a cert and it's not a legal requirement. According to various info I've looked up, there's nothing to support what the GP claimed and the GP also referred to "not wanting to be dragged into a court case" (despite no mention of one by my sis).

Can anyone confirm whether it is actually legal/acceptable for GPs to refuse to issue the cert that's required for an application for illness benefit?

Dempo1

Unfortunately an illness cert is required before illness benefit can be considered, without one the DSP will not process the application.

With regard to the legal question regarding a GP'S refusal to issue a Cert, I'm no legal expert but it would be difficult to argue against a GP'S medical opinion.

GP'S follow certain protocols when it comes to issuing Sick Certs & whilst I don't doubt your sister's situation there is no mechanism legal or otherwise I know of to appeal your sisters GP'S decision.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008619#Comment_121008619

In your sisters GPs professional medical opinion your sister is medically fit for work.

Your sister is free to seek a second opinion from another GP at another practice but another GP is not obliged to see her.

I don’t understand your point about the GP being obliged legally to certify someone as unfit for work.

If that were the case then any of us could demand sick certs at any time and for any length of time wether we were sick or not.

pamplemoussey

I've only discussed my sister's mental health here but there are some physical issues too which genuinely will prevent a number of fields of work (imagine if you were a typist, broke both wrists and the GP wouldntsign you off). That might seem like an extreme example but this is a genuine case of physical problems categorically preventing the type of work that Intreo are pushing for. So I genuinely do believe that in such a case, the gp should be legally required to issue the note.

But we are already arranging a second opinion...I fail to see why someone should be forced into work that could lead to permanent disability.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020478#Comment_121020478

Moving to another GP is the only option. If she is a medical card holder there is a change of GP form which needs to be completed and signed and stamped by the new GP.

Then you send it to medical cards.

Once again the GP of her choice is under no obligation to take her as a patient either medical card or privately.

You would need to attach a letter explaining why she wants to move GPS. Medical cards most typically refuse change of GPs application form unless either the medical practice has moved an unreasonable distance or the patient has.

If she’s not a medical card then this isn’t necessary.

Im interested in your theory about a GP being legally obliged to lie on a fitness to work certificate.

Is this not akin to a parent demanding that a teacher give their child a passing grade in an exam even though they didn’t give the correct answers?

pamplemoussey

"Im interested in your theory about a GP being legally obliged to lie on a fitness to work certificate."

Wow. I'm interested to know where in any of my posts I have talked about getting a GP to "lie"? I mean, having essentially had to keep her on suicide watch the other day, ON TOP of all her other physical and mental health issues (and by the way there are certs, consultant letters, scans, and all other forms of proof of all said issues, some of which are dating back 15 years) I really don't understand why said GP would ignore all that and claim my sister can work when the proof is overwhelming that she cannot. So if anyone is lying here it's the GP for claiming these issues are not "serious enough"

doc22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121021623#Comment_121021623

The GP prob has history with the department and their medical officer having push back on certs. The GPs knows what is acceptable in terms of illnesses that would be incapable of work and unwilling to give certson that basis, ultimately if he signed someone of sick and incapable of work long term and the department refused to accept it, you could ultimately put the doctor in position were he’d have to back up that opinion in court.

Serious health issues/anxiety card been played as soon as activation is called may sound suspicious too.The GP and Social welfare don't think the issues are serious, like has she been sectioned/increased/new meds in the last 2 years that would show an increase in severity in illness since last worked?

pamplemoussey

Hi there thanks for this info, yep there has been an increase in severity in past few years: essentially she had a breakdown during Covid as company she was with for 20+ years went bust, it was real lifeline of a job because the medical issues that started 15 years back got progressively worse, but the company was really supportive and made a lot of allowances for things she genuinely couldn't do without causing a detrimental impact. When the company folded, it was the fear of not being able to get into a similar job that would make such allowances that had helped that set things off, so in terms of the anxiety and mental health difficulties these have absolutely gotten worse and there is ample evidence in terms of visits to gp/hospital and so on. So yeah, I totally get what you're saying re: possible suspicion from the department and that definitely makes a lot of sense but the proof is all there with the GP. which is really frustrating because the proof is there in black and white.

Ezeoul

Clearly Jobseekers is not the correct payment for your sister to be on.

If she has no income, it might be possible for her to sign off Jobseekers and claim Supplementary Welfare Allowance pending a decision on her Disability Allowance application.

However it is means tested.

Supplementary Welfare Allowance (citizensinformation.ie)

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121021623#Comment_121021623

The certificate requires the GP to state, in his professional capacity, that the patient is unfit for work.

In his professional opinion she is fit for work. You want him to be legally obliged to lie about that. What is the point in asking a doctor his professional opinion if he’s obliged by law to lie about that?!?

That means that anyone who wants 104 weeks of SW sick leave can have it any time they like and as many times as they like. Can’t you see that?

Dempo1

I'm afraid this is now getting into silly territory. As someone who's gone through a lengthy process before even applying & has just been awarded Disability Allowance. A GP'S support & opinion is crucial, notwithstanding the Sick Cert requirement the next step is the Disability Allowance Application form & detailed medical reports.

Whilst I have sympathy for the OP's sister, Clearly, for whatever reason her GP is not of the opinion she's NOT unfit for work, seeking the opinion of a 2nd a GP will not, I believe change anything as they'll request a new patients medical records. They are absolutely NOT going to issue a sick cert based on a 1st appointment.

I've no problem admitting, I had Mental Health Challenges & attended counselling for over a year & am still on Medication, this along with other Diagnosis of a Nuerological Disorder & Rheumatology disease all formed part of my Application for DA which was approved on 1st attempt, which is extremely rare.

I again sympathise with OP's sister but this Thread started about a query re Seetac, Redundancy, Unemployment & A sick cert. I think it's unwise to be offering false hope, Those on Disability Allowance or Invalidity Pension know how difficult these payments are to get & there's a long Journey requiring the Support of a GP & consultants, Mental Health is particularly difficult to assess for approval of DA.

This is my last comment on this Thread.