Irish White Privilege......Yeah

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172668#Comment_122172668

Let me spell this out for you.

The State should have no part in deciding who should feel shame/privilege or whatever the ideologues of the day decide what is sinful. The last time we allowed that, tens of thousands of young boys were abused in classrooms all over this country, those abusers were protected by the State, Political class and media.

If you want to beat the notion of privilege into your kids, off with you, leave everyone else's kid alone.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173302#Comment_122173302

Who is talking about shame or sin here?

Your line of reasoning here strikes me as someone who spends way too much time concerning themselves with the views of either end of the extremes on this — the white guilt purveyors and the reactionaries on the other side who are constantly locked in their little Twitter battles.

Try this: Imagine that somewhere in between those two extremes there might just exist a nuanced and meaningful middle where discussion around privilege is actually a very powerful way of engaging your ability to think critically.

Or I dunno, spend the rest of your life making conflations between the opinions of people who disagree with you and whatever wild extreme thing you arbitrarily decide ties in nicely to rely on theatrics over substance. Up to you.

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172527#Comment_122172527

No, it’s not about treating people badly but it’s more than rich that someone from a country that is far more racist than Ireland cries that Ireland is racist.

We are not a colonial power we were colonised. Eight hundred years of occupation, a famine, one third of our population dead one third forced to emigrate to America where they were given nothing and had to work for everything. I grew up in the eighties, we were poor. I went to college and worked to pay for it. I got a job and paid for everything myself. I won’t have someone else’s guilt pressed on me.

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173249#Comment_122173249

I see. Lets just make assumptions that people had it easier than you and so were privileged . Personally I would say poor Tarquin got sh!t on by his parents for naming him that as it makes him a target for people looking to be outraged and they picked on him because of his name.

Gentlemanne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172629#Comment_122172629

You know what's funny is I'd actually also use the word trick about a situation where you tell your own children that the concept of privilege is bullshit.

Everyone has exactly the same situation in life kids, and there's nobody with any inherent advantages or disadvantages! Now lets all snort glue and huff paint

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173384#Comment_122173384

Oh come on.

Once you start telling and convincing one group of kids that they are privileged you are implying also that they should not alone be grateful but also ashamed that they are pivileged.

That is very much how the ones foisting this mindset sees things.

Just look at or listen to some of the ones pushing this agenda in the homeland of this mindset, the USA.

It is totally implied that modern white people should be ashamed of what has historically been done to black people in the country.

That might be fine if you are talking to some white cracker in Alabama whose grand daddy was in the klan and whose great great grand daddy kept slaves and fought for the confederates all the while making a fortune off slavery.

But why should some kid whose parents emigrated to US from Ireland in the 50s feel ashamed because he is simply white.

Ten of Swords

@purifol0 threadbanned

Cordell

Everyone living in Ireland is privileged to live in one of the best countries in the world by every metric there is, including weather. Everyone, white, brown, black, doesn't matter. This is what it should be taught in schools and celebrated, and if anyone doubts that this is the case:

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173658#Comment_122173658

Yeah but you're doing that thing that people like to do on stuff like this where you say "listen to what some of the ones are saying" — and you'll point us to some activist who thinks white people should be taxed higher as penance for slavery in the US or some guff like that. Yes, there are people who have an overly zealous view of privilege — but then again there are people who are zealous racists too, right? The fact that either side on the more hardline ends of the spectrum exists does not mean there isn't a space in between where beneficial reason can be found.

Also, why should telling a child they are privileged in a certain way make them feel ashamed? Who is implying it? Some activist? A journalist at the Guardian? Some Trinity blogger? The reality is that the none of those people tend to ever actually be reflective of wider society — a society where I can recognise (for example) that growing up heterosexual came with conscious and subconscious privilege that my gay peers didn't have without any feeling of being ashamed that I'm straight.

Most Irish teachers — knowing a lot of them myself as both the son of a teacher and the partner of a teacher — are not radical activists. They tend to be normal quiet people who aren't on some ideological crusade. The discussion on privilege isn't defined by the loudmouths just because you possibly have only tended to listen to the loudmouths.

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173735#Comment_122173735

Every metric such as health, housing, living in poverty levels???

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173804#Comment_122173804

Yes.

Healthcare while far from perfect it ranks 23/167 in the world: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1376359/health-and-health-system-ranking-of-countries-worldwide/

There is no real poverty in Ireland. For real poverty have a look at the image I posted. Housing problems can be solved, and they will be.

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173735#Comment_122173735

Show those kids an Irish school with no heat during winter and ask them where they would rather be. There are plenty of Irish kids going hungry due to their parents issues. Now what are you personally doing to make either case better?

Also none of those kids look under feed.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173963#Comment_122173963

Seriously? Those kids are bare feet in the dirt, and that's in a classroom, not out on a field. Our kinds get free hot meals in school now, what are you on about? Even the worst prefab classroom in Ireland is heaven compared to what those kids are getting. And that's even before we think about what happens in those places, famine wars and genocides. We and our kids are incredibly privileged to be living in Ireland.

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174603#Comment_122174603

Plenty of rich Africans that are more than happy to see their own people live in poverty. Are you personally going to do something the make their lives better? I mean how do they benefit from your guilt?

Oxo Moran

We are a classist society. There are worker bees and the privileged. RTE is a great example. Joe Duffy and Gay Byrne were working class, but the people behind the scenes reaping massive expenses and salaries were certainly born to it. As was Ryan Tubirdy.

There's more chance of a Nigerian getting a job in RTE, being put up for election etc., than someone from a working class background.

That's not knocking any Nigerians, just pointing out optics and cultural enrichment does not and never has included a level field for working class people.

Milominderbender

There is someone living in Africa right now who has never even heard of Ireland who will get housed before an Irish person in need. Calling Irish people privileged is a sick joke.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173486#Comment_122173486

I mean, by that logic, most members of the British royal family are less privileged than many people who grew up in a sink housing estate, as long as they had parents that loved them.

There's really not a lot of point in me trying to explain what nonsense that is, if you can't see it already.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174619#Comment_122174619

You may have misunderstood me, I feel no guilt because I did nothing to be guilty of. Also I'm not going to do anything for them because that's not my responsibility and frankly I don't care enough. But still I'm grateful for having the privilege of living in one of the best countries in the world.

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173384#Comment_122173384

Shame/Sin/Privilege, it's all the same, it's a religion. Who the f##k are you to tell a small little child that isn't yours that they are privileged because of the colour of their skin and should somehow repent, because that is the real purpose of preaching this nonsense to kids, to make them repent, to make them acquiesce. Kids who would have been pals will be divided by this garbage.

Let the parents handle the teaching of life's nuances to their child. Bigots have no business in a child's classroom.

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173769#Comment_122173769

Most Irish teachers? So what percentage of teachers are radical activists? Because, as discussed, we've had issues with radicalized teachers in the past as we all know.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174603#Comment_122174603

So what are you proposing as a personal attonement for the circumstances these less well off kids? A 2 hour fast and a large financial transfer to your favourite charities? Or maybe going on Boards and displaying your compassion for those poor foreign kids from your comfortable abode is enough to assuage this guilt.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122175202#Comment_122175202

You also misunderstood me. It's not about guilt and compassion, it's about being happy and grateful for what we have. Grateful, not guilty. As for white privilege, that's nonsense. The backs living here have the same privilege as anyone else living here.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122175122#Comment_122175122

Repent? For what?

Acquiesce? To what?

I mean, you're the guy talking about "listen to what some people say" and yet here you are giving me this God awful "who the f**k are you" stuff and talking about bigots in classrooms. If I'm being honest, sounds like you're more influenced by the radical left view than I am!

Why would teaching a child to understand the different lived experience of their classmates somehow make them enemies?

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122175178#Comment_122175178

Very good. Can you explain to me what your point is here and its relevance to our discussion?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176090#Comment_122176090

Exactly the whole privilege issue is pure nonsense and as said before imported here from the States and has no place or relevance in this country.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122174619#Comment_122174619

What is with the guilt thing though?

The spirit of Cordell's post, which I mainly agree with, is simply a statement that it is a privilege to be born in a developed country and to have the things which such countries offer from your earliest days. He said nothing about feeling guilty about it, or that anyone has to atone for it.

Now, I'd disagree with where he takes that argument eventually — i.e. acknowledges the privilege of being born in a developed country but then does not apply the same logic to other forms of privilege.

But ultimately, he said nothing about guilt. That word keeps getting put into peoples' mouths for whatever reason.

magicbastarder

What is with the guilt thing though?

it's a strawman to allow people who are opposed to the idea to more easily vocalise their opposition.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176709#Comment_122176709

Maybe if the people and their families who strongly advocate for this initiative should buy the 'I feel so privileged to be Irish and White' t-shirts and parade around with the canvassing politicians. I'm sure they'd appreciate the vocal support from all the like minded equivalents

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176852#Comment_122176852

Ehh, why should they do that?

magicbastarder

i don't even know what point he was trying to make with that, even though he was responding to me. so i left it.

volchitsa

Not having said anything about guilt, I have nothing to say about that, but my main reason for opposing it is that in an Irish context it is a complete nonsense, and harmful to societal cohesion.

That may be justifiable in the United States' context, where laws and much of society - including the northern states albeit to a lesser extent meant the whole system was designed to prevent black people from succeeding in society. Red-lining was a reality in Chicago for example:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/1050.html&ved=2ahUKEwjl7djImKaGAxWuQ6QEHSxKC9MQFnoECBEQAw&usg=AOvVaw27br4dFTr9hSKdUSafpO9j

But the racism that exists/existed in Ireland was simply a variant of the racism white people encounter in Asia and in some parts of Africa. Not acceptable, but nothing like what "white privilege" meant in America.

And the claim that the Irish in Ireland are favoured by dint of their skin colour - well, to a Northern Ireland nationalist who was born before the troubles began, that's really quite a stretch of the imagination. The children of wealthy African families studying in the UK or Ireland were far more privileged than any of us were.

And who knows how many of them came from families who made their money through the slave trade? It wasn't white people (and it certainly wasn't my ancestors!) who went into the forests in Africa to capture slaves for the slave trade. WTF do Africans get a pass on that? Because of their skin colour??

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176155#Comment_122176155

And yet you can't even fathom how this will be divisive in childrens classrooms.

Again I'll ask, who are you to tell any child that they are privileged? What have you (or any teacher) done, that allows you tell a child the colour of their skin is something they should feel privileged about? Do you have an ounce of self awareness at all?

Just because some one gobbled up Critical Race Theory, a product of a clearly messed up humanities departments in US Universities that has spread to our 3rd level institutes, does not give you, or any teacher any right to tell a child in their classroom that they are privileged. You have admitted yourself that there are radical activists in the teaching profession. Perhaps you should be asking yourself if you have been influenced by a radical ideology instead of pointing the finger at everyone else.

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176179#Comment_122176179

How about you answer the question, you said there are radical activists in the Teaching sector, we have had radical activists in the past in Irish classrooms, what if the figure was 5% or 10% of the teaching profession were radical activists, do you not think children should be protected from them?

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122177582#Comment_122177582

But you're the one who is bringing up old history and the slave trade here, right? Not me.

I don't think anyone is going to credibly argue that the experience of black people in Ireland today is the same as that of black people in America — or consequently that the recognition of white privilege in Ireland means the exact same thing as it does in America. But I have personally seen, even recently on the Luas, non-white people who were sitting quietly on the tram being racially abused by adolescents, including a couple who looked to be Chinese/Japanese/Korean who were just singled out for abuse by one teenager who seemed particularly off her head.

You can understand that a black or Asian person who is sitting on a tram might feel less comfortable in certain situations by account of their ethnicity being something that nasty people might single them out for. That's something I don't really have to worry about — and that's also where male privilege comes in where I can generally feel a bit safer on my own on a late train or walking home at night than a girl (bearing in mind my understanding that the curriculum does not refer specifically or narrowly to privilege based on ethnicity but also other types of privilege).

These are just small everyday example that can accumulate if you put yourself into another person's shoes — it doesn't always have to be huge systemic discrimination and it doesn't always mean you get "favoured". It just means there might be certain negative aspects of everyday life you don't encounter because of some characteristic or circumstances — such as your ethnicity, sex, wealth, background, health, able-bodiedness — that other people do. I think I benefit from privilege in some aspects versus some people but also don't benefit from it in other aspects versus other people — and one person can have more privilege than you in one thing but less in another.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178158#Comment_122178158

Well who is anyone to tell anyone anything? I don't see why your logic of believing that nobody else has a valid right to opinion on education cannot just as easily be turned on you. Ultimately I can just as easily say, who are you to dismiss the lived experience of those (including children) who see others benefit from privileges that they don't? And even at that, the curriculum doesn't just talk about privilege on the basis of ethnicity, but also other types of privilege — the point being that its a multi-dimensional concept wherein a person can benefit from certain types of privilege while also not benefiting from others. A black male benefits from male privilege, an able bodied Indian female benefits from able-bodied privilege, a wealthy person in a wheelchair can benefit from class privilege.

So it's not about telling children that they are just privileged and that's that — it's about acknowledging the privileges they have and also exploring those that they don't. It's not shame or guilt at all — it's the recognition that different people encounter different obstacles in life on the basis of certain characteristics and circumstances. It's the antithesis of division.

As for the teachers thing, I'm not entertaining this. If you want to push an idea that the existence of teachers with more radical views than others (bearing in mind, that also applies to teachers whose views are on the Right) is widespread enough to be considered a pressing urgent risk to our society then by all means you go ahead and compile the evidence to show it and start another thread.

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178649#Comment_122178649

But you are the one forcing a belief system on children. And then you conveniently dismiss the impact of a radical activist teacher after you admitted they exist.

We had to learn the hard way that priests AND teachers who were given authority to teach kids the nuances of life were often riddled in dysfunction themselves, I see no merit in even entertaining the thought of giving teachers back that authority.

AND yet you still haven't told us, what gives you the right to impose your version of the nuances of life on children that aren't yours? You haven't answered it because you have no answer.

Many of us remember our teachers, most of us will only remember one or two great ones, a few ordinary ones, and as we get older we remember the one's who were as thick as a plank. Teachers are in no position to force a view on any child regarding their privilege.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122178881#Comment_122178881

I'm not forcing a "belief system" on anyone any more so than children being taught about and encouraged to show kindness, decency, manners, respect, tolerance, caring for others, gratitude etc or any other social skill or good personality trait is the imposition of a belief system. We expect schools to teach and encourage these things. Understanding privilege is part of the very same thing.

And privilege isn't about telling children they are privileged, it's also about helping them to understand the ways in which they might lack it. That's a powerful thing. A lot of people who grew up gay in this country might have had a better time of life if schools acknowledged and encouraged students to understand the social and familial obstacles that young gay people faced versus young straight people. Having grown up, and now having heard many of the sad stories of gay friends — I certainly think I would have benefited from better understanding the obstacles and challenges they faced that I didn't because I wasn't gay.

But yeah, I guess I'm a big scary Leftie who wants to tell white kids they should be ashamed of who they are and immediately seek penance.

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179043#Comment_122179043

You are just an ordinary person who has convinced themselves that you are more virtuous than others, that is all you are!! And you want to teach kids to be virtuous just like you, because you are convinced you are right. People like you shouldn't be allowed near children.

susan678

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179043#Comment_122179043

The last paragraph that you try to pass off as sarcasm is totally the truth.

Nobody has any business telling other peoples children what to think.

I like how you try to deflect telling us about you're fictional gay friends when we all know this is about so called white privilege.

Like I said in a previous post children are innocent they only get they hatred from adults.

Flaneur OBrien

This is the maddest thread.

Privilege exists. Acknowledging it is no bad thing.

I think of the boys who attend Belvedere College in Dublin. Most of them would be enormously privileged boys, and they're all aware of it. From the ones that come from wealthy families to the ones that are there on scholarships. And all the ones I've met over the years that have come through that school have been the nicest, most grounded, successful people I know.

There's absolutely no harm in recognizing privilege and at the same time there's absolutely no reason to feel guilty or shame about it.

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179190#Comment_122179190

We are talking about skin colour privilege here, not the privilege of the tiny minority of kids who go to the most expensive private schools in the country….you may have missed the title of the thread.

Do you think so we should remind black kids that they are privileged to be here in Ireland and they should be grateful for that privilege and they should be reminded of that all the time in every school in the country?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179249#Comment_122179249

I think it's important that white kids be made aware of their privilege, yes.

I thinks it's important that kids of non-white heritage are aware that white kids are working on their privilege, but equality won't happen overnight.

As for the rest of your post, I think it's pretty disgusting you think that way.

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179275#Comment_122179275

You think it is disgusting to separate kids on the basis of their skin colour to tell them and remind them of their privilege, yet you also, simultaneously think that kids on the basis of their skin colour should be separated and reminded of their privilege.

Ya, you can't be taken seriously.

nachouser

Just a reminder to anyone who didn't bother to read the document linked by the op, the word privilege was mentioned exactly once. It's one of those "gotcha" threads. One word mentioned once in an appendix in a 24 page document.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179298#Comment_122179298

If this country treated people as equal, you'd be right. But you know as well as I do that this country treats people very differently depending on their skin colour.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179387#Comment_122179387

Colour me shocked.

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179395#Comment_122179395

So it's your belief that Ireland is systematically racist?

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179436#Comment_122179436

Absolutely. Skin colour is still so new to a majority of us. It was 1987 when I saw a black person in the flesh for the first time. All the kids followed him all around the estate like he was the pied piper 😂

I know a lot of my friends that are black don't feel safe in the cities (Dublin, Cork & Galway), purely because of their skin colour.

My brother in law is black African and I honestly couldn't tell you how many CV's the boy sent out looking for a job, that he was well capable of.

Ireland is inherently racist, but it's getting better. Things like the kids playing for the Irish football team, or getting picked for GAA teams will make a huge difference.

Silentcorner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179466#Comment_122179466

Ever spoken to someone who has travelled around Africa? You'd experience the same, do you think Africans are inherently racist?

bloopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122179275#Comment_122179275

This sounds like some sort of original sin type deal. A tainted nature bestowed by mere fact of birth which requires continual atonement.