Irish White Privilege......Yeah

Potatoeman

This stuff is really just a replacement of religion, original sin is white privilege under a different name. It conveniently ignores wealth which is a far bigger advantage. Wander around the Middle East or Africa alone as a white person and see where that privilege gets you. It’s amazing how the left have gone to other end of the spectrum on this stuff.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189475#Comment_122189475

Is anyone here denying that wealth / class is the fundamental privilege (though I would probably add health / able-bodiedness alongside)? The very point being made repeatedly here is that privilege applies to many different c circumstances. The acknowledgement of white privilege is not to say that a white person is privileged full stop. It is obviously and demonstrably the case that many white Irish people have a serious lack of privilege, not least among them a lack of wealth.

The distinction however is that people tend be pretty aware of wealth / class status as a source of privilege — because it's always been the case and its outcomes tend to be more obvious and understood. Acknowledging other forms of privilege that relate to newer developments in Irish society (like ethnic diversity, increasing openness toward gay people etc) are a little more novel to us, and it seems to be that people take the discussion on underlying biases that haven't been traditionally challenged as being a bit of a personal attack.

And don't get me wrong, a lot of people who advocate better recognition of privilege often do so in a heavy-handed, aggressive and needlessly attacking way. I think by and large, outside smaller groups of activists, commentators and the Twitterati, people are capable of seeing the middle ground.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189738#Comment_122189738

Well I don't think it ignores wealth at all but let's consider your view on the "shame" point. As you say, wealth confers certain advantages on people. On a relative basis, you are wealthy versus others and others are wealthy versus you. Those in particular who are born into a relatively wealthy position might have certain opportunities to secure comfort, invest to increase passive income, have family properties handed to them for free, pursue their passions and interests with less concern for financial risk. People with less money on the other hand face more financial barriers in life.

Does acknowledging this make you feel "ashamed"? Do you think acknowledging this is invariably an attack of the relatively well off or an attempt to divide people between rich and poor forevermore? I

Potatoeman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190000#Comment_122190000

Money is an advantage, I don’t see why anyone should feel guilty about it. A rich black person would have more privilege than a poor white person, are we all going to have to make a list to figure where we are on the oppression chart? Is being white in a majority white country even a privilege? Do diversity incentives then make being a minority an advantage?

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190000#Comment_122190000

attempt to divide people between rich and poor forevermore?

I think rich and poor division is a diversion. The best good start in life an average young person can have is a healthy family environment with both parents as role models.

mikethecop

so where is this privilege and how do i get some coz i could really do with it ???

thereiver

Most people in ireland are white this includes migrants and people from the eu who come here to work.

ireland is not america ,it does not have a history of slavery or racist treatment of black people or other minoritys. theres a large white working class population are they really priveliged or better off than other people who happen to be of other races .Middle class people and upper class people tend to have advantages in terms of income acess to education and the network effect ,eg middle class people tend to give jobs to people from certain area,s and people who speak with non working class accents.

i think gen z whichever racial group they belong to, are more concerned with the housing crisis trying to find a place to rent at a reasonable price or the looming threat of climate change ,than the problem of racism towards certain minority groups.

i think since the 80s ireland has been regarded as a modern western country ,our economy has been improving since the 90s especially since we became the eu base for various companys like google intel and facebook

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190437#Comment_122190437

Exactly — the acknowledgment of advantage does not have to mean guilt. It doesn't mean you've done anything wrong, it doesn't mean you haven't achieved anything in life of your own doing, and it doesn't mean that you aren't disadvantaged in other ways or versus other people. Privilege does not need to equate to guilt.

I also don't think it's about oppression either. It can be, but I don't believe Ireland specifically to be an oppressive society. I also think that white privilege in the Irish context is very much not the same as what is meant in the American context — it is far, far less of an issue here than what it has been in the States and (in my opinion) manifests itself in subtler, less frequent and less socially profound ways. But it's still present and I think being conscious of the more sober and reasonable perspectives of it, instead of just summarily dismissing it based on the more intense perspectives some people push, is beneficial. Some of the comments you see for example in videos of Rhadisat Adeleke, born in Dublin, on YouTube — "she isn't Irish and took a place off an Irish woman" etc — is just a taste of some of the social bias that is out there, and that's obviously on the nastier more obvious end of things.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190470#Comment_122190470

Well I don't agree with the diversion bit but I do agree — if that's what you're saying— that being born into a stable family environment is definitely a huge privilege in life and definitely one of the most consequential. I was lucky enough to have that and, now that I have a partner who didn't have that, I do see the privilege I enjoyed in that regard.

And personally, growing to understand that privilege has helped me a bit in the stop-and-think process before giving a bit of advice that might be laden with bias I previously wouldn't have been conscious of.

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122189475#Comment_122189475

Well people who suggest it in the first place are probably from a wealthy background which is funny in itself. Think everyone else with same coloured skin is the same.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122192093#Comment_122192093

Well, I'd probably see it as a healthier state of mind for relatively wealthy people to acknowledge privilege than to believe that they are wealthy because they are simply more naturally superior to poor people or have some unwritten entitlement to be better off than others. It's better than thinking poor people are poor because they are simply lazy and unindustrious.

It doesn't mean that wealthy people can't be proud of their achievements — and success in life comes from taking whatever opportunities you can — but acknowledging that you had certain privilege along way might go some way to giving you a healthier perspective as to why some kids don't just waltz as easily into stellar careers as others. That's just my two cents anyway.

Backstreet Moyes

I am instantly wary of people who try to push views on young kids.

What I find then is many of them actually don't have any kids themselves.

Imagine white Johnny going home and starving and getting beat up by alco parents.

Then we have black Jason who has a loving family who holiday two times a year.

Then you are telling Johnny that he is privileged.

Unless these ideas are forced upon kids, they just tend to get on with life like kids do.

The people trying to force these things on kids are the ones trying to push division between kids.

Jason just wants to get on with life and has other problems and Johnny is just trying to make it by.

So it's best to just leave kids be kids and to focus on your own life and not interfere with other people's kids lives.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191627#Comment_122191627

The diversion bit comes from the fact that what we both agree on is now something that's not to be said, because a healthy functional two parents family somehow became a conservative right wing ideal.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122191627#Comment_122191627

So should young people in school be taught that if they have two parents they are privileged and if they have only one they are underprivileged?
What active steps should be taken by the school to even this privilege up? Or is it just about making one group of kids feel bad about themselves without anyone being able to do much about it? Unlike disability access to train stations.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122192093#Comment_122192093

Perhaps they feel ashamed by that and they are trying to shift the blame.

Seriously, white privilege drivel is just attempt at wealth redistribution. They think that having the same starting point gives everyone equal chances but it is not the case and it never was. There are people who are driven to get or achieve more and there are people who do not care or bother. That is why socialism failed and fail every time when implemented.

Even here, there are numerous non white people who were driven to achieve success and got good jobs, nice houses and worked their a$$ off to get where they are. And there are others who still sit in DP centers because they wait for the house they feel they should be getting.

White privilege my a$$.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122192174#Comment_122192174

I am instantly wary of people who try to push views on young kids.

What I find then is many of them actually don't have any kids themselves.

Yes, only parents should have the right to push views on their children.

Children learn about the world from many different places, ridiculous to suggest otherwise

Sunny Disposition

White privilege is a ridiculous concept in Ireland, where Travellers have been among the most disadvantaged for more than a century.

Privilege in itself is a dangerous notion, there's every chance it will be used as an excuse if kids are told they are disadvantaged and that's just inevitable.

I went to London as a young fella, half educated, but I was a millionaire within ten years. Black guys I know did the same. Other Irish guys drank themselves stupid and whinged about the English, the Government at home, but didn't take the huge opportunities London had to offer.

No doubt there are privileged white people, but there are also privileged black people and underprivileged white people. Anyone with a screed of commonsense knows this to be the case.

Teaching kids that privilege is inevitable is hugely dangerous and far more likely to reinforce systemic issues around prejudice than disrupt them.

It's an unpalatable truth, but true nevertheless.

Virtue signalling is causing an awful lot of issues in Ireland nowadays.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122192355#Comment_122192355

Of course, but the OP is about attempts to teach children a specific set of beliefs, as part of what they have to learn to succeed in school. That makes it obligatory, not just a personal choice. And parents may disagree with some of those beliefs for valid reasons, not because they are racist.

So who decides what children should be officially taught? It would not be acceptable to teach muslim children the catholic catechism, nor to have fasting during ramadan enforced on all children in a school. "White privilege" in Ireland is just another belief: even posters defending it have agreed that other factors such as wealth and a stable family background are far more significant in practical terms than skin colour, in Ireland.

So why would teachers be instructed to teach children that they benefit (or lose out) from something as random as their skin colour, if their parents don't want that taught to them in school? And that may not just be white parents who don't it taught to their kids: black parents who want their children to feel comfortable with their white friends may not want them to be taught to see themselves as victims either.

Backstreet Moyes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122192355#Comment_122192355

I mean I thought it was pretty obvious with the word push, given the context of the thread.

I never said kids should only learn from their parents, maybe read it again as your post is ridiculous.

Interesting how you think people beside parents should 'push' views on children.

shootermacg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122192355#Comment_122192355

There's a greater chance of a parent acting in their own child's interest than some random committee.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122192243#Comment_122192243

Well, firstly I don't think I ever said there's a need to "even things up". Even taking the simpler example of disability access, nobody is actually saying that things need to be evened out — i.e. stairs haven't been cancelled.

Secondly, I don't think the conversation has to be that one person is entirely privileged and another is entirely underprivileged. I also don't think that society is incapable of emotional intelligence when it comes to this. Problems in the home are obviously emotionally charged situations. I don't think any conversation on privilege needs to be held in the absence of cop-on, and if it's better to avoid talking about certain things in certain contexts then fine.

I also think the way we discuss these things obviously should vary greatly dependant on age. Older students in the mid to later teens, in my opinion, should be encouraged to think critically about society. Things like privilege form part of that because it's a topic that invites you to engage critically with the lived experience of others versus your own. This doesn't mean always taking big measures, but simply encouraging a better understanding of why some peoples' experience and perspective of life is different.

And look, maybe there's a better word for all this than "privilege", because the word seems to really set people off on a parade of assumptions about what is meant by it.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122193384#Comment_122193384

Then I think you need to start your own thread, because what you're saying has almost nothing to do with the OP.

The question was whether schools should, as has been suggested, teach children that white children in Ireland are the beneficiairies of unfair advantages due to race and sex. I think that's an unhealthy approach to take for a number of reasons. That doesn't mean I think there's no racism or sexism in Ireland. I just think it's pointless and unnecessarily divisive to "teach" it as fact in Ireland. Because we don't have a history of deliberate racism as the US does. And that really is the question here.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122193384#Comment_122193384

maybe there's a better word for all this than "privilege"

No, not when you're trying to shift the narrative. It's basically like saying that someone in a wheelchair is not disabled, but everyone else is overabled - hence you (you meaning state or society) shift the burden to people who don't owe anyone anything for being normal and average.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122193507#Comment_122193507

My position on it would be that I don't mind privilege being taught or at least discussed in schools so long as the understanding of it is broad and it's not pushed in absolutist form (such as white privilege being pushed as meaning white people are invariably privileged in all ways). The discussion on privilege is, in my opinion, perfectly healthy if it is also acknowledged that everyone — even white straight men like me — both have privilege and lack privilege in certain regards.

And I don't necessarily agree that we don't have historic problems. We have never been immune to sexism and problems regarding the wellbeing and safety of women — and similarly with the societal treatment of and issues faced by gay people. Yes, we don't have a longstanding domestic history of racism by virtue of the fact that the island has been overwhelmingly white — but shifting racial demographics mean that we should not be complacent to the potential growing prominence of the issue.

Look, it's not that I'm deeply passionate about privilege being a feature of discussion in schools. If it wasn't, I wouldn't particularly care. But I guess I just don't think its the wildly radical thing it's made out to be and it can be a beneficial thing to consider.

volchitsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122193953#Comment_122193953

But the suggestion is that it should be taught as a fact, not as something to be discussed.

From the OP: The National Council for Curriculum & Assessment (NCCA) released a new draft for the secondary SPHE curriculum that wants “white privilege,” “male privilege,” & gender ideology taught to Irish kids. In the draft curriculum it urges children to recognize their “privileged status” as a “white, male or Irish person,”  

That's a terrible thing to teach children IMO. Not that different from back in my time where we were encouraged to pity the little black babies in Africa: it was no doubt well-meaning, but in practice it was deeply racist. Lots of black people in Africa were better educated than many Irish people, but you wouldn't have known that from the way they were portrayed in Irish schools.

And at least that was done in order to get money to feed people who were actually hungry, and who weren't in our classrooms: this proposed curriculum will do nothing except teach children to see each other as either victim or oppressor. It's a terrible way to go about encouraging friendship among children of different origins. It will do the exact opposite.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122194142#Comment_122194142

Now that you mention it, I just looked at the draft curriculum (not sure if this features in the final one) and the only reference to privilege is in this one passage:

"Allyship involves recognising and using one's privileged status (for example as white or male or Irish person) to support individuals from minority identity groups. "

Is this all it says? That doesn't strike me as being particularly heavy — plus it appears to be for Senior Cycle which is the 15-18 year old group. Am I missing something and this applies to the younger cohort too?

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122190578#Comment_122190578

It's round the back from your cervix.

jmayo

Why the fook is there any mention of white and male privilege at all ?

Aren't we supposed to be saying everyone is equal rather than this shyte of telling some they are inferior or superior to others.

It is this modern tripe of giving excuses to people why they fail or even why they shouldn't bother trying in the first place.

We have done this shyte for generations with travellers and now it is going to be used for immigrants of certain backgrounds.

I can see it in years to come.

Ah shure the state gave you education, housing and healthcare, but it is all the fault of the natives why you didn't use that education, why you live in a ghetto with huge crime and you can't get a job.

jackboy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122194451#Comment_122194451

Being white or male in a country like Ireland gives close to zero advantage, so for a start it is a false statement. Traits such as intelligence or attractiveness give far far more advantages than race or gender.

We need to be honest, calling whites and males privileged is about bashing those groups, nothing more.

SharkMX

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122195257#Comment_122195257

My whole generation seem to have spent their lives being molly coddled and have grown up to blame someone or something else for ALL of their failures. With the result that the most of us now expect someone else to do everything for us to help us get on in life and then theres always someone to find to blame for our own failure to launch.