Irish White Privilege......Yeah

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007437#Comment_121007437

People who live in a country should not be treated as differing in importance to anyone else, we don't have a tiered system of people, there should be no second class citizens, with less rights than others.

minimary

I honestly think in a few years someone in the US will decide that declaring some groups have inherent privilege is racist and it will become verbotten to openly state "I'm white and therefore privileged" which you hear some people do. Its inherently nonsense too, most privilege comes from wealth, a middle class white person in America is not more privileged than someone like Oprah.

What I think is interesting that hasn't come over from the US/Australia is land acknowledgements and such. If its important to acknowlege that indigenous people are the rightful custodians of lands in certain countries where land was forcefully taken, why isn't it important in Ireland?

gameoverdude

Travel to certain parts of Dublin and ask about white male privilege..."but, but, but you're a bit whiter!"

minimary

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007769#Comment_121007769

I would love to see some investigative journalism into what exactly the NGO's do but the media in Ireland is far too cozy with the NGO's for that to ever happen.

Personally I think there should be a prohibition for any proportion of Government funding to go towards lobbying. If an NGO accepts Government funds, there should be a prohibition on them to lobby or to fund lobbying.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008804#Comment_121008804

Certain countries is right.

Pygmies and other hunter-gatherer tribes in Africa were being massacred and having their land stolen by Bantu-speaking foreign invaders as late as the 17th century (after the settlement of North America had begun).

For giggles:

Tell a person in what is now Kenya or Uganda that they aren't native and that they ought give back the land their ancestors stole. I'm sure they'll be all ears.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008839#Comment_121008839

Yes the Government pays so-called non-Government organisations to lobby the Government.

Nothing circular or suspect about that arrangement.

Why, there's a universe of deniability right there in the prefix "non-".

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008379#Comment_121008379

So who are these second class citizens who have less rights than someone like me?

stellamere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008022#Comment_121008022

What is the point in all that though? What are you suggesting we should do now that "privilege " has been established. Are you not just pushing Christianity? Although, the ones pushing "privilege" and equity don't really come across as the compassionate types. More vindictive and preachy to me.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008878#Comment_121008878

Within most societies there is a group that has a historical advantage. Be it due to ethnic, economic, social, religious, military and a host of other reasons.

All that is asked is that in seeking to have a more equitable society, those who had advantages acknowledge the fact. That is all. To acknowledge that there maybe systemic advantages that they benefitted from. And any individual has likely both benefitted from some advantage and also suffered disadvantages elsewhere. The white unskilled worker from rural Kentucky was a beneficiary of the segregationist policies in that state, but also suffered from the lack of investment in training and education that left him in low paid dead end jobs when the major industries left, and without adequate healthcare which left him with an almost 3rd world life expectancy

cdeb

That'd be the Protestants here so

Seriously, your post sounds lovely but when you actually read it there's nothing in it bar empty cliches

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121009635#Comment_121009635

...😉

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121006728#Comment_121006728

Yeah ..and people who don't have a lovely red head , of hair or otherwise , they can too ;)

Goldengirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007437#Comment_121007437

Why indeed ?

We are not nor will we be .

This is not what is or will be discussed but I'd take a punt that most Irish secondary school kids would see that they are lucky to be born in Ireland rather than Eritrea if it comes up .

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121008379#Comment_121008379

Yet that happens all over the world… 🤷‍♂️. Nobody bats an eyelid…. From Africa, Asia, South America and beyond 🤪

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007362#Comment_121007362

"Equality..."

I'm gay and I don't want equality.

Equal under the law, yes, but not treated equally in society. That's because you need to earn respect from others. I am no more special than anyone else, and society is damn complex. Sometimes we like people, sometimes we don't. That's the nature of the transaction. I certainly don't want to force people to like me because of my sexuality. I would rather bad people hate me. I could easily play the victimhood "privilege" game if I wanted to. Trust me, it would be simple. I could do it in five seconds. But I choose not to because a) I'm not a victim and b) I don't want to foist my interests and standards on everyone else. It's the same with the whole "white privilege" nonsense; it's highly manipulative and disingenuous.

People are too busy with their own lives, work, family, and everything else, to even bother to consider the special feelings of a minority in society that want to feel aggrieved about everything; who are highly manipulative and often attention-seeking, narcissistic individuals.

I want honest and decent people in my life, not these boring, perpetually offended and always negative and hateful minority of people who want to transform society as an attempt to gloss over their own inability to integrate into society themselves.

AndrzejL

Boy am I glad I have no children…

Mimon

I grew up in the 80s when a lot of people including my family didn't have a pot to piss in.

I went months with shoes with split soles. Didn't say anything to my parents said as I didn't want to put any financial pressure on them to get me a new pair. Where's my privilege?

People growing up today in Ireland of whatever ethnicity are far more privileged than the vast majority of people in this country in the past have been.

Racism and discrimination needs to be challenged and tackled when it rears it's ugly head but anyone trying to label me as privileged can kindly fk right off.

Mimon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121009635#Comment_121009635

You lead with that line about protestants and then follow up by criticising him for using empty cliches.

🎵 Isn't it ironic.......😂

cdeb

Well I was replying to the idea that "Within most societies there is a group that has a historical advantage. Be it due to ethnic, economic, social, religious, military and a host of other reasons."

In Ireland, the reality is that the Protestant minority in Ireland in the 17th to the 19th centuries had that advantage, through stuff like the Penal Laws, language barriers, the barring of Catholics from trade guilds, professional occupations and Parliament. Fairly major stuff really. So fecked if I (not a Protestant) am going to be lectured about my historic privilege in that regard.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121010152#Comment_121010152

I think you missed the point, spectacularly. The Anglo-Irish did benefit from privilege, do the disadvantage of catholic Irish. No one is saying that is not true. Acknowledging your own current advantages is not to deny historic disadvantages. Two things can both be true, which seems to be a difficult things for a lot to accept

silverharp

it would be funny if the note had said.....like being white, male, protestant

we live in a society where its illegal to discriminate and if someone does and you can prove it you can get a payday. Its just a pity we have to import the foibles of the brits and the yanks

cdeb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121010999#Comment_121010999

Not missing any point. The Anglo-Irish do not have the advantages they used to have. And that all changed without any nonsense about white male privilege. In fact, it changed by the removal of the sort of discrimination that simply doesn't exist here now.

So let's not start importing vacuous American nonsense where it's simply not needed. The idea of white privilege or male privilege is really a way for silly people to see the world, as it reduces it down to things - race, sex - that they can understand, and takes the actual complexities that they can't understand out of the discussion.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011280#Comment_121011280

Of course.

Most of what you list are not what are being talked about though. With perhaps the exception of the legal outcomes.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011415#Comment_121011415

and explain it so that Decco from Clondalkin who grew up in an abusive home will agree that he has it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011415#Comment_121011415

"White male privilege" is composed of nothing, because it's a nonsense concept to begin with. It's an inflammatory invention designed to stoke people against one another.

The reality is that being born white does not confer some special phantom power unavailable to everyone else.

Race is not a predictor of future success in society. Economic status is a far more relevant determinant. Take a look at how many poor people are in this country who are white, or people who are simply just getting by or who perhaps are struggling with bills. Go to their faces and tell them how privileged they are by virtue of the colour of their skin.

The people pushing this nonsense are either liars, grifters or baiters -- most of whom are, ironically, either upper middle class or elitists themselves.

Unflushable Turd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121010152#Comment_121010152

And to stop being a catholic, all they had tI do was turn up at the local Church of Ireland gaff every Sunday. It was and still is, a tad harder to stop being black.

newmember2

I'm distraught...how am I to atone for my superior looks and intellect privilege?

Unflushable Turd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011280#Comment_121011280

When you get dressed in the morning, or to go out in the evening, what consideration do you give to not attracting unwanted attention?

when you go out for an evening, what consideration do you give about getting home safe, like making sure you are never on your own in a cab?

how often do you get your arse pinched, or have someone leading at you in a pub, telling you they would have to be dug out of you? Or calling you a stuck up bitch because you won’t accept a drink from them?

I’m guessing never, because you aren’t female.

elefant

There's amazing defensiveness on display here around the idea that some people have advantages because of their appearances, their socio-economic class, their sexuality etc.

You don't have to feel guilty because you're a man or because you're straight. But it can be a positive thing to realise that there are certain situations (like walking alone on a street at night) where you're in a privileged situation because of who you are, and be mindful that not everyone else experiences life in the same way you do.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011415#Comment_121011415

It is you guys harping on about "white male privilege" and think it is being applied to all white men in all situations.

Decco from Clondalkin, as another poster identified does not benefit massively from "white male" privilege in Ireland. Fiachra from Dalkey does though.

In everyones life there are advantages and challenges they face. Acknowledging there are certain advantages that accrue to some and not others does not mean that they automatically face no challenges or obstacles in life. Again, two or more things can both be true at the same time. The world is not an either/or.

cdeb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011694#Comment_121011694

What an ignorant comment.

First off, black people in Ireland don't face any of the systemic discrimination that Catholics did in Ireland for centuries.

Secondly, why should people blithely change their culture like that? This was quite a religious time when the concepts of heaven and hell were very much believed in by many, and many people would have believed renouncing your church put you at risk of eternal damnation. We can laugh at that now, but the reality is it's not a factor you can ignore like you did. Plus you've a risk of being ostracised by your community, and of not being accepted by the new community.

And thirdly, they also had to change the language they spoke, from Irish to English. Not something you can do at the drop of a hat like you suggest.

Some people did it of course - but to say "all they had to do" is ignorant in the extreme.

cdeb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011786#Comment_121011786

Why doesn't Sorcha from Dalkey have the same advantages as Fiachra though? Or what about Harpal, whose dad came over from India on the back of a plum IT job, and became equally wealthy?

This is where I think your idea of white male privilege is a lazy way of trying to understand the world - reducing things to observable facets of a person's appearance (race, sec, etc) because the real complexities of life are actually quite tricky. Certainly far more complex than you're making out.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011758#Comment_121011758

it's funny how many people in this thread don't understand the difference between 'can be' and 'is'.

giving an *example* that white people can benefit from privilege is not a statement that all white people are more privileged than black people all the time.

the example given was clearly a case of 'if you enjoy a privileged position, it is a good thing to be aware of that'. but it seems no formulation of how that can be phrased will be OK for some people.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011775#Comment_121011775

not in the round though in this realm, more men are violently attacked and more killed, the 4 English tourists and the American one just recently were all men for example.

elefant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011826#Comment_121011826

I'm a man and I have no idea at all what the last line there is referring to?

And rather than it being conceited to think that men don't stop to consider their privilege in many social situations, I think it is extremely naive to think otherwise.

elefant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011889#Comment_121011889

Yes, you're getting it now. What's the problem with acknowledging those things?

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011818#Comment_121011818

My idea or white male privilege? I think you need to read the thread again. The people continually talking about white male privilege continually are yourself and your fellow travellers. I have given many examples of privilege almost none of which are based on skin tone or gender.

The document that sparked this whole rabbit hole said the below in its only reference to "privilege"

Allyship involves recognising and using one’s privileged status (for example as white or male or Irish person) to support individuals from minority identity groups.

It does not say White Male Irish Privilege, but is just a definition of allyship. That is all. It uses white or male or Irish as an example. It is not limited to these. Someone elses could chose their privilege as being their parents decision to immigrate to Ireland, their socio-economic background or a myriad of others.

And once again, the above sentence is the only reference in a 20 page consultation document to "privilege". Anyone reading the thread would believe it was a full course on white male privilege.

Where is is applied in the document is:

Ways to advocate for and create greater equity and inclusion 3.5 consider the skills needed to stand up for themselves and others, and the range of situations where this might arise 3.6 demonstrate allyship skills to challenge unfair or abusive behaviours and support greater equity and inclusion.

That is all. Yet here ye all are, losing your sh*t.

NSAman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011911#Comment_121011911

If you acknowledge those things constantly, you are making apologies for something ALL the time. When do you actually “be yourself”? Comparing yourself to others, apologising for who you are and what you are, through no fault of your own, is a fools way to live.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011889#Comment_121011889

same thing for every variable? in a short example in a glossary?

as i said

the example given was clearly a case of 'if you enjoy a privileged position, it is a good thing to be aware of that'. but it seems no formulation of how that can be phrased will be OK for some people.

Q.E.F'ing.D.

cdeb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011923#Comment_121011923

It's fairly suggestive that the only examples it uses are "white", "male", "Irish" though, isn't it?

Would you not think there'd be a bit of an attempt at diversity in there? But it's never black, female, Muslim privilege.

So it stands to reason that of course the discussion is going to be on white male Irish privilege - after all, those are the words in the document. Precedent would show it's highly unlikely to go down the lines of my second paragraph, don't you think?

And then of course we have the obligatory reference to outrage/losing your ****/taking offence which hasn't been happening and is thrown in purely to try dismiss a point's relevance without addressing it.

elefant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011968#Comment_121011968

Nobody is talking about making apologies, apart from the cohort in this thread who are arguing against the idea of privilege. Just being aware of it is a positive thing, in my view.

I'm not apologising for being a white man. I do understand that, in my daily life in the city I live in, it makes many aspects of my life much easier.

NSAman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011990#Comment_121011990

So move to Africa, see if your other countrymen/women/they/them, recognise their privilege? It’s a purely western BS construct.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011987#Comment_121011987

in an irish context, where the majority of the audience will be white irish, are you suggesting that listing being black or being muslim as an example of being privileged would be sensible?

WInd and piss artists.

magicbastarder

i'll email the NCCA with a suggestion that they change the offending text to this.

Allyship

involves recognising and using one’s privileged status (for example as white or black or asian or hispanic or mixed race or male or female or non-binary or Irish person or english or european or african or asian or catholic or protestant or hindu or muslim or atheist or none of the above) to support individuals from minority identity groups.

elefant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121012011#Comment_121012011

This doesn't sound like an argument against the concept.

But anyway, do I think it would be nice if people were sympathetic towards me being a white man if I was in a place where I was in a position of relative disadvantage? Yes.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011987#Comment_121011987

You think the subject is designed for only white Irish males?

Once again the only reference is in the context of:

Ways to advocate for and create greater equity and inclusion 3.5 consider the skills needed to stand up for themselves and others, and the range of situations where this might arise 3.6 demonstrate allyship skills to challenge unfair or abusive behaviours and support greater equity and inclusion.

It is outlining that this is something that everyone doing the subject should consider when reflecting on themselves? Why do you believe it only applies to white male Irish? It can only be a desire to be permanently outraged or an inability to self reflect really.

NSAman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121012044#Comment_121012044

We’ll try it at some stage, report back to us about how disadvantaged you were and what the privileged did for you.

elefant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121012060#Comment_121012060

What's your point?

That some other people wouldn't be kind to you, so you couldn't be bothered even engaging with the idea that you should? Or that children in school shouldn't be encouraged to think about it?

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121012095#Comment_121012095

Its the whole extreme moral relativism mindset that infects discourse these days and sets up the idea the "X isn't perfect therefore Y is OK". In this thread specifically it is reflected in the opinion the certain people have no need to consider that the may have experienced advantages relative to other people, because other people might not do the same.