Time to admit defeat, scrap the navy?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121029331#Comment_121029331

Just look at Telecom Éireann

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121028962#Comment_121028962

It will be interesting to see what the new head of Army Design does they could recommed less managment with only a handfull bases throughout the island for the Army

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019222#Comment_121019222

And your solution for say preventing drug trafficking, or illegal fishing etc... would be what exactly and keep in mind that the Irish territorial waters dwarf our land mass....

The sooner an EU defence force is setup the better.

The Irish Defence Forces couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery let alone workout how to defend the country no matter how much money you would throw at it.

RavenP

The problem is not the DF, it is with the government and Department of Defence.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121029951#Comment_121029951

Not going to happen. NATO is the supreme military alliance in Europe, now more than ever. The PfP is the methodology to include non NATO EU members in activities.

The EU is all very well as a bureaucratic platform to share the economies of scale of bulk research and procurement, but it is not a military body and in the wake of the Ukraine war - and it has to be said the strong presence of the UK in the material support of Ukraine - I daresay an operational EU military command is further away than ever.

Fisheries and piracy are one thing, warfighting is a whole different ballgame.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121030647#Comment_121030647

I think it will happen with the EU pulling its funds and resources together. No country in the EU can fund there own equipment so will want to use EU budgets to spread the cost.

Ireland will have ships and jets stationed here which will be directed from Brussels.

NATO is a flip flop organisation as it depends who's in the white house.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121030709#Comment_121030709

? No country? So who pays for Frances nuclear force and all its costs? Oh yeah the French taxpayer. Nations do joint projects (with varying degrees of success) but that’s not even close to being a centralised EU force. I’m sure next you are going to be telling us the Germans are all going to conscript us?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121030824#Comment_121030824

Stop crying.

I believe at dome stage that there will be an EU Defence force funded and governed by the EU.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121031109#Comment_121031109

Sorry, you just made me laugh so hard.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121031109#Comment_121031109

All that tells us is that you don’t understand very much about the nature of the EU and more importantly the mind set of the average mainland EU citizen! Not surprising since you don’t live among the fallout of two world wars! You’ll get coordination in purchasing and administration, join missions and even possibly some joint units, but that is it. The average EU citizen will not be willing to go beyond that.

RavenP

i was in England a couple of years ago, I was in Bristol and my friend lived in Oxford. I wanted to get the train to visit him. It would have cost about £200 return, to do a journey not much more than Dublin to Belfast. I hope we change course soon. I don’t think FG are quite as corrupt as the British Tories, who know exactly what they are doing and know it is destroying their countries infrastructure, but do not care as long as their pals make money.I do think, however, that FG are blinded by ideology on the one hand, and like to think they are high rollers as well . Alas FF do not seem to have a strong enough counter narrative and I have little faith in SF, they are inexperienced in government, too populist and have not put enough blue water between themselves and the provos campaign .

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121028884#Comment_121028884

So the state cannot compete with the private sector in what they pay engineers?

Q: Why don't they increase the pay of engineers to compete?

A: Because every other rank will want a pay increase too - to maintain parity, couldn't have an engineer getting paid more than the captain or first officer of the ship.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121029915#Comment_121029915

The navy isn't exactly preventing much of anything the way it is at the minute now is it? You want to spend 100's of millions on ships which will be stuck in port most of their life? There is no need for ships to patrol our waters, it's a waste of time and manpower; drones could patrol our seas much more efficiently and be used to direct fishery protection vessels to suspected illegal fishing, or direct the Gardai to where drug trafficker's are going to land.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019807#Comment_121019807

Ukraine and Nagorno-Karabach show no such thing, as any of the professionals in the sector will tell you. Drones have merely become an additional component in all-arms warfare, both a factor in offense and for defensive consideration. They have not yet become the dominant form of combat.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121023137#Comment_121023137

[MOD] I am not a moderator over on the EV subforum. I neither know nor care what their policies are. However, let's take this at face value, that there are a few interested, well-meaning parties taking a particular viewpoint on matters. Sparky42's position above on inaccurate premises not being discussion holds. It is quite possible that the many folks starting multiple electric car threads actually know what they're talking about in the subject matter. That does not apply given a number of the statements on this thread. Be they honestly held mistaken beliefs, or beliefs put forward for the sake of trolling, the end result is the same. If you don't like being corrected by people who know more on the subject matter than you do, then that's your concern. When it comes to the political questions of the role of the Navy, I would refer you to both the political guidance given to the defence forces, and the recent independent commission on the defence forces which have stated the framework in which the State is to best operate.

That's not to say that there are no legitimate alternate viewpoints on how to do things. I note, for example, Iceland has a coast guard to perform the roles the Irish Naval Service tends to spend most of its time at, but it's also worth noting that as members of NATO, anything which requires a little more capability is provided by treaty. Such arguments need to be substantiated on something better than misunderstanding the tooth-to-tail ratio of a modern navy.

I'm not going to shut down this thread (for now), but am going to insist that all parties continue in future within the political framework set out. The government has said Ireland needs a navy. The Commission on Defence Forces has said Ireland needs a navy. If posters disagree with these political decisions, or the relative allocations of funds per department from the Minister of Finance and Minister for Public Expenditure & Reform's budget, then I suggest they take it to the Politics forum. The military is an executive branch. This forum primarily exists for discussion on how best to execute political guidance.[/MOD]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020852#Comment_121020852

You really need to tag me so that I get the notification.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032453#Comment_121032453

Where have you lived on mainland Europe?

sparky42

Just to highlight that such issues aren't unique to our Navy, one of the sites that follows the RN is pointing out that currently none of their SSNs are out on patrol and some of which (any of which costs more than the entire NS combined) haven't sailed in over a year... And yes crewing is one of the issues they face. It's not a unique problem for Western militaries at the moment, our issue is given how small the NS has always been we lack the depth that others have.

mikeym

Nobody talking about improving pay & morale. Thats whats killing the place.

jonnybigwallet

Fix pay!

Larbre34

Pay.

Respect for a work life balance.

Pensions appropriate to the nature of the career.

Opportunities to develop and progress with hard work.

Adequate staffing appropriate to the task.

= good morale and no problem recruiting and retaining.

mikeym

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121060136#Comment_121060136

More Med trips like Yeats did recently.

Proper time off patrols.

Less duties.

Make seagoing attractive.

Signing on bonus for those who are signing on instead of letting them go on a pension.

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121061134#Comment_121061134

Can barely put 2 boats to sea; wants them to patrol the med??? Seriously?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121061932#Comment_121061932

The WBY arrived from 6 weeks in the Mediterranean, 5 weeks ago.

RavenP

@Firbolg actually patrols like this are the kind of thing that helps recruitment / retention, and it builds Ireland kudos with its EU partners, who we might need to call on in the future.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121061134#Comment_121061134

"Make seagoing attractive"

Firblog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121064078#Comment_121064078

not fit to do the job they're supposed to do; send them to do someone else's, so we'll look good? / may get some unknow favour in return at some unknow time in the future? More likely to need the help of the UK, should they go help out in the channel?

RavenP

@Firbolg Problem is, Ireland cannot trust the UK. Ten years ago, possibly, but not now. After May, Johnson and Truss, the UK is, alas and I really mean alas, I am an Anglophile, going down the tubes. Its democracy is in tatters, its population divided, its reputation for stability shot to bits and Neoliberalism has hollowed out its institutions even more than Ireland. It has trouble with recruitment and retention too, all across its services. Its navy is barely able to cover its own roles (albiet wider than IRelands). Same with people who are talking about relying on the UK for Air defence. The UK is down to only about 100 combat aircraft. for everything. It is not the RAF of old. Come a war it has no spare aircraft to cover Northern Ireland, let alone the Republic. We need to get our act together, because the UK is not in a position to help us.

Widdensushi

Surely the Ukrainian war has shown that the navy's part in any conflict is limited,drones etc are the way forward,we have custom's with new bigger ships on order,we have 3 eu fisheries ships working since last year,both roles that the navy would have played a bigger part in previously,I suppose the question is what is the long term plan ? Fisheries and customs delegated elsewhere, satellite can monitor for customs till it comes ashore?combat is not a viable option,is the plan for foreign trips etc? Not against investment but would like to see a plan/purpose to the large scale expenditure.I know the navy lads will attack this post,I don't mean it in a bad way, genuinely asking the purpose in light of how pointless navy has been in recent international engagements etc, investment in aircraft/drones/radar etc might be better.

Strumms

Ukranian war has shown the Navy is still very prevalent in operations.

over 100 different Navy vessels of all classes have seen action for the Ukraine….

a few drones won’t replace a Navy.

If the world changed significantly after an event and another country felt like Ireland was a good place to rock up and take over by way of invading…. There should be ‘some’ sort of deterrent.. we are an island, we need a navy.

mode1990

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058310573/time-to-admit-defeat-scrap-the-navy

Contrary , relying on West Cork trawlermen to fend off Russian vessels who've sinister intent , we rely on the RAF to buzz off Russian jets invading our airspace , as an island with a vast coastline and exclusive economic area we should at least have a navy that's capable of enforcing its authority and stop relying on our neighbours !