Calling yourself British.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032869#Comment_121032869

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121032901#Comment_121032901

https://sluggerotoole.com/2023/08/28/i-was-born-in-ireland-so-why-do-i-feel-british/

This is an interesting article from a British person in Ireland about why they feel British.

We are slowly getting used to the idea of gender identity being for the person themselves to assume and not be imposed by outsiders, yet we don't afford the same courtesy to national identity.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042386#Comment_121042386

Of course we 'afford' people the right to tell us what their national identity is. Has anyone suggested otherwise?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042930#Comment_121042930

We have posters calling it a bit cringe and others wondering about their logic, so I think we have a way to go before some of us accept that there are people born on this island who are British.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042962#Comment_121042962

Ah here. Speak for yourself. I doubt anyone doesn't acknowledge that there are loads of British people born in NI.

I really think you've chosen the wrong form of words and now you're trying to back it up in the face of the evidence. Have you seen even a single post in the thread that doesn't 'afford' people born on the island the right to identity as British?

I've a child born to Irish parents in England. We often chat about how they will identify. We assume the child has the choice.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042386#Comment_121042386

It's the other way round I think, the more you're brought up in an entrenched position the less acceptable you're going to be to other views on anything.

NI is a case in point, you'll find the same people who have entrenched views on nationality will have the same views on gender identity, homosexuality, abortion etc. The idea of live and let live seem to be completely alien to them.

Some of the comments in that article are beyond the pale, I would have the view that people like me, in the south, don't identify with nationalists in the north at least as much as people in Britain don't identify with unionists and see them all as a bit touched.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121043033#Comment_121043033

They do, but only up to a point. Nationality is a communal, collective, shared identity; to be (say) French two things are necessary; you must regard yourself as French and other French people must regard you as French.

For a child of Irish parents born and brought up in Britain, identifying as British won't be a problem; overwhelmingly British people will accept as British any white person born and brought up in the UK. (In mentioning "white" here I don't mean to suggest that most British people would take a different view of people of other colours; a few might but the great majority would not).

But you can have cases where things are not so clear-cut. As a matter of UK law, and under the terms of the GFA, anyone born in NI has the right to identify as British, and has the right to have that identification accepted and respected. But I think there's a sense that many people from actual Britain regard the NI British as only sort-of-British, or weird British. I think this feeling that they only enjoy a qualified acceptance as British that make the identification of many NI British seems sometimes very insecure - strident, assertive, exaggerated, etc.

(There's a more recent, but I think growing, parallel trend to question or qualify the Irishness of NI people who identify as Irish. We see this view expressed on Boards from time to time.)

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045123#Comment_121045123

I accept most of that. The fact about identifying and being identified as French, is true.

I didn't really know anyone didn't accept the NI Irish, as Irish. But I know the English who don't understand the sitchi-ation in NI are less likely to consider them British. They hardline NI Unionists have less in common with your average English person than the average Irish identifying person in NI.

It was interesting back in 2017 to see the surprise in England when the DUP were part of Teresa May's coalition. There was a lot of coverage of The DUP and their positions on contemporary issues like religion, gay marriage, abortion and maybe most embarrassingly, the age of the earth. A lot of English people had just assumed the Repubpicans were the headbangers and troublemakers in NI.

So the Unionists might not be recognised as British on mainland Britain, but what about when they identify as Irish AND British? Brian o driscoll did a show about rugby and the troubles. He spoke to NI Unionists who blew his mind by saying they were Irish AND British. But nobody would have the same surprise at someone considering themselves Scottish and British or Welsh and British. English and British are practically the same thing in this context.

So the NI Unionists get it in the neck when they identify as British or Irish. This might be the only kind of self ID the hardline unionist are OK with.

Hangdogroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019516#Comment_121019516

Has he actually said that he identifies as British?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045245#Comment_121045245

Per the 2021 census, only 2.1% of the population of NI identifies as both British and Irish, so it's not a common identification. By contrast, 31.9% identify as British only, 8% identify as British and Northern Irish, 18.9% identify as Northern Irish only, 1.8% identify as Irish and Northern Irish and 29.1% identify as Irish only.

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045276#Comment_121045276

Yes I posted transcript an interview he did a couple of pages back easy to find if you Google.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045276#Comment_121045276

He identifies as Irish and Northern Irish, but adds that "Northern Ireland is part of the UK so that means there’s a part of me that’s British".

Unflushable Turd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121036871#Comment_121036871

I love reading threads on here about the British. The absolute shite that is written is often quite amusing and predictable

you and Shoog both deserve a special mention though.

bravo.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045358#Comment_121045358

It occurs to me that, when a poster who calls himself "Unflushable Turd" uses the term "absolute shite", it may actually be intended as a compliment.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045334#Comment_121045334

Sure. The census is really useful but it's also a blunt instrument. The bloke BOD was speaking to was an orange man on a parade. I doubt he puts Irish and British on the census but when asked as part of a conversation about sports (specifically supporting ireland rugby and whether he'd support ROI or England in soccer) he said he's Irish and British. So he supported Irish rugby and hated England soccer. It's complicated.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045358#Comment_121045358

I don't think many Irish men have a good handle on the underlying attitudes of the English. Just as many English use broad stereotypes about the Irish - the same is equally true regarding the Irish and their attitude to the English.

What many people miss is despite their broad tolerance many English are insular, bigoted and ignorant of their own history. The dominance of the increasingly loony Tory party over English politics is testimony to this.

Unflushable Turd

If you go to any country in the world, you will find people that are insular, bigoted and ignorant of their own history. A quick read of the forums found on this website will testify to that.

the Irish, for some reason (mainly due to their own arrogance) seem to think they are better than everyone else and live nothing more than looking down on people, especially those on the islands east of here.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045598#Comment_121045598

But we are!

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121045553#Comment_121045553

I don't think you can get a more disgusting example of insularity, bigotry and ignorance than the crowd singing "Up the Ra" at the Feile Festival in Belfast recently, so us Irish should be careful about throwing such stones around.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050477#Comment_121050477

Not sure I agree. The IRA gained Irish independence for every citizen and there is history there which deserves acknowledging. The fact that a section of Irish society resisted independence is a great shame. I am not sure that a tradition of marching lambasts around your neighbours street has much moral high ground to occupy.

I speak here as a person with northern protestants heritage.

Unflushable Turd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050487#Comment_121050487

so a similar background to John Mitchel then?

Maybe they'll name several GAA clubs after you as well.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121021323#Comment_121021323

Depending on what part of England you were born in, you may actually have Anglo Saxon blood in there somewhere. The Angles (The Germanic tribe) is where England gets its name from and the English language is derived from their mother tongue. But you also could have French blood in you, from the Norman settlers in the 11th Century, but that's less likely. Although you could have Viking or Celtic Blood if you're from oop Norf.

Angleland or England was made up of different Germanic peoples. Briton was in the west of the Country and extended from Modern day Cornwall, over to Wales, up through Lancashire and into the Lake District and was populated by mostly by Celtic peoples. So there's a good chance that if you go back far enough, your ancestors were of German origin if you're from the south or the east.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051084#Comment_121051084

I am aware of the history, was just very strange, and I have never been referred to as that, either before or since.

I remember a school trip many years ago where the guide said the Normans may well have wiped out up to 90% of the ‘native’ population after conquering, obviously pretty much guess work but interesting regardless.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051208#Comment_121051208

They Gerries were just talking the mickey. They actually do have a sense of humour. 🙂

However, I really doubt that the Normans could have wiped out 90% of the native population. Norman setters only numbered in the low thousands. But over all they integrated much more than they exterminated. In many ways the Normans very quickly adapted to much of the Anglo Saxon way of life in the south and it all ends up being very difficult to fully understand which culture dominated which and to what extent. But obviously the dominant language remained a Germanic one and French never took over, even if the official language of Court was actually French from the 11th Century to the 14th.

But yeah, the history of the Island is fascinating alright.

Unflushable Turd

The Normans wipes out a good percentage of the native population while subjugating the north of the country, but even the largest estimates don’t go above 75% I believe.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051839#Comment_121051839

Norman settlers who came in the aftermath of the Battle of Hastings numbered less than 10,000 people. They didn't have the resources to wipe out the "native population" to any real deciding percentage. What they did "wipe out" however, was the Anglo-Saxon aristocracy, much of it at Hastings, which allowed them to plant their own monarch on the throne and they forced the Anglo-Saxons to submit to their rule. But there was no extermination in the way that's commonly understood.

But over the next few hundred years, while there were various skirmishes, fights and battles with the "natives", there was no "wipe out" going on. Unless one considers integration and intermarrying to be "wiping out". The Anglo-Normans were more interested in becoming "English" than killing off the indigenous people.

Unflushable Turd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051914#Comment_121051914

Of course. William had a new kingdom and wanted to rule it, people and all.

when the north rebelled though, his response was brutal and the doomsday book records large swathes of Northumbria as desolate as a result of the famines caused by his scorched earth tactics.

The 75% I referred to was of the north, not the country as a whole.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121052152#Comment_121052152

For sure the Harrying of the North was savage and William's men did unspeakable things, even for the time. But I'd still question the accuracy of the 75% figure. That's a LOT of people to "wipe out" and I just don't know where the Anglo-Normans would have got the resources to do such a thing in single winter.

In any case, I think we're way off topic here on why people call themselves British. 🙂

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121052239#Comment_121052239

The 75% estimate is based on an analysis of records in the Domesday Book and other sources. The suggestion is not that William's campaigns killed 75% of the population, but that they wrought such damage and caused so much famine and dislocation that, in the years that followed, the population declined by that amount. Much of this would have been people abandoning the area rather than people dying.

Others question the estimate, suggesting that the Domesday Book itself is not reliable, and/or that there were other factors at work, apart from William's campaign, to account for the decline in population (and tax revenue).

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066190#Comment_121066190

Yeah, I know where the 75% estimate comes from. But I'd question that figure myself and the Domesday Book, in general, could hardly be counted as something with pinpoint accuracy, especially in areas outside of London. For instance Bristol had no records, despite the fact that it had a sizeable population, had a booming slave trade and was even the site of a mint.

Ardillaun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121024125#Comment_121024125

It’s easier. Nobody is going to pull you up and close the door on you if you claim to be British.