Buying a house with attic conversion

ola23

Hi there,

We have recently gone sale agreed on a 3 bed house with an attic conversion (attic classified as storage space).

This attic, which I thought was a great addition, is now causing trouble.

Even though the vendors say it is storage, they do have a bed in it, it has proper stairs, 3 Velux windows to the rear, carpet, radiator.

Am I correct in my understanding:

1. Certificate of compliance with builing regulations is required

2. Confirmation that Planning permission is not required for storage space

If the vendors supply the above two am I covered as a buyer? I wouldn't like to buy a house with potential issues or a house which would be them difficult to re-sale..

If it is the storage space on paper, but reality/substance is a bedroom (stairs/ radiators/windows etc) is it potential issue?

Thank you for all the replies.

wildwillow

It probably doesn’t have the required ceiling height over enough of the room to qualify for habitable space.

Fire safety may be another factor.

If you want storage space it’s not a problem. However if you want it described as a bedroom you need all the certificates and permission.

There are numerous attic conversations with the same issues.

It becomes your problem once you buy it and will be a factor if you ever decide to sell it as a bed space.

Former Former Former

This comes up all the time.

They can still call it "storage" even with the stairs, carpet etc. It just means it doesn't meet the requirements for habitable space, usually due to a lack of headroom. Since building regs don't apply, a cert of compliance likely won't be available.

Since they're not selling it as a bedroom, there's no issue. Since the veluxes are to the rear, no planning issue.

From your perspective, you just want to be sure that whatever work they carried out was done properly and is structurally sound. It would be good if they had an architect or engineer sign off on it, but at the very least you should get a surveyor to take a very close look.

timetogo1

It's a storage space with a bed in it. No problem there. I got mine done years ago.

I use it as a spare bedroom. I just can't call it one of I ever sell.

There should be steel beams for the floor though and there should be a certificate for that. That would be the only thing I'd worry about. The seller should be able to show you that.

DownByTheGarden

In our old house we floored the attic, put a stairs and a couple of veluxes in and made an office out of it. It could easily be the biggest bedroom in the house by far if you wanted a bed in it but we never did. The joists were 9 inch joists so no steel was needed. we sold it as a 3 bed house. Pictures of the attic with the office equipment were in the adverts, described as just an attic and when people came to view they saw it and their minds could wander wherever they liked, but we never said it was anything more than an attic. No certs or anything were needed as it was just an attic.

I have since heard that the new buyers are using it as a bedroom. At the end of the day it is still just an attic and always was just an attic, so no more red tape needed than for your regular attic.

topal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121019559#Comment_121019559

It could have all the requirements satisfied, head height, fire doors, self closers on doors escape route etc.

There is an addition cost and delay involved getting an architect to do up plans and submit it to the planning system before you can officially call it an extra bedroom. Most people don't bother and sell it as storage even if it has an ensuite and bed in it.

ola23

Thank you for all the responses.

lawred2

you've pretty much described 95% (99%) of all attic conversions in Ireland

drogon.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020077#Comment_121020077

We saw a house last year that had been sale agreed and feel through, after enquiring with the EA - he said the same thing, attic is only for storage. Even though not only did it have a bed, but a builtin en-suite with shower and a WC.

Talking to our solicitor he said he would advise me to stay away from it, saying even if you buy it today - who knows what legislation could be brought in tomorrow that could make it a challenge - just one accident and next thing you will be on the hook for making stuff like this complaint (not necessarily when you own it, but when you got to sell it on)

That being said, he mentioned if you really wanted it - I don't mind pushing the sale forward for you as there is nothing illegal here, my job is to advice what is best for you and my advice would be to stay clear.

herbalplants

It doesn't have head space, you call it storage, you can still have a bed.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121020077#Comment_121020077

You don’t need planning to convert an article Soave to an additional bedroom of it meets the regulated requirements.

Section 41H will cover you.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121022232#Comment_121022232

Nonsense.

You cant retrospectively apply building regulations.

gipi

I bought a 4 bed bungalow in 2005. 2 of the bedrooms, plus a shower/WC, were in an attic conversion, done sometime between 1997 and 2003. I knew no better, was advised that a Certificate of compliance was available. There was enough to satisfy the mortgage lender anyway!

Fast forward to a few years ago, I'm selling the same house. I can only advertise it as a 2-bed.

Turns out that the rooms are just short of the required height, so the house got a lot smaller and "storage" space got a lot bigger!

drogon.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121022858#Comment_121022858

Not going to argue with you, but by having a bedroom in an attic that is only rated for storage you’re already not complying with regulations to begin with!

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121022910#Comment_121022910

And don’t forget, fire regs for a bungalow conversion to 2 storey are very less than those required for a 2 storey house being converted to 2 storey.

The funny thing is the height is a suggested height in Part F of the Building Regs, including the triangle calculation for rooms below a roof but they have been cemented into the industry as the normal required.

Im not sure if this has been tested legally before.

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121022082#Comment_121022082

I literally just went through this buying mine, a small office, a bathroom, bedroom, carpets stairs 3 velux windows etc all just listed as a storage space, its the 4th bedroom and the nicest but I bought the house as a 3-bed, the attic wasnt mentioned once during the whole thing, zero issues.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121022232#Comment_121022232

You were very badly advised

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121022232#Comment_121022232

I think thats a case of a solicitor not staying in his lane there :)

loyatemu

we converted the attic in our previous house, had no problem selling it with the attic listed as "storage". We had an engineering cert for the conversion work. Given the sheer amount of converted attics around, I don't believe it makes them unsellable but some solicitors are more cautious than others.

What you choose to use the space for is up to you, though if you are using it as a bedroom you'd be well advised to make sure it meets the fire safety regulations. Even then you may also run into insurance issues as it's not possible to have it certified as a habitable room if it doesn't meet the ceiling height requirements. But plenty of people have their kids sleeping in converted attics.

ola23

There is a bit more of alterations work done by the seller and for some reason they are unwilling/unable to provide certs (that they are compliant with the building regations).

Is this something difficult to get?

Our solicitor is proposing qualification on title on that but I wouldn't like to go down that route. First, I understand the bank may not want to lend us, second we may have issues selling the house which is effectively non-compliant?

We really love the house but is it not too risky? Does anyone have any experience with qualification on title?

Thank you!

paddyb

We recently got our attic converted. The builder did the work putting in stairs, new steel beams for support, windows etc and then a few weeks later an engineer came out and did a report on it. He gave me two documents, one says it exempt from planning (as it's technically storage) and the other certifies that it is structurally sound.

The engineer was independent of the builder so I am sure anyone could hire an engineer to do the same

We use it as a spare room, I would say almost all attic conversions that I have ever seen are 'storage' so you can do it without planning. The 'storage' thing would not be an issue for me but they should have the correct paperwork (or get an engineer to do it now) so you can be sure that everything was done correctly structural wise.

DownByTheGarden

If you want, you can get an engineer to come in just before you sell and sign it off. Basically he is just saying your attic storage is not going to cause the house to fall down. Bank will be happy with that. But as long as you dont claim its anything other than storage the bank wont even ask for a cert. Its just an attic.

MrsBean

Edit: was supposed to quote OPs most recent post re certs. Am addressing that post.

Very similar to ours. The vendor had done an attic conversion, kitchen extension and porch extension. Initial draft contracts stated the vendor would not be providing certs. We pushed back stating that they were required by our lender and it was the responsibility of the vendors to provide for same. Eventually they appeared. At some stage our solicitor mentioned possibly needing to seek a qualification to title on a specific issue, which I didn't really want to do, but in the end the certificates of opinion on compliance/exemption ended up being sufficient. In our case the house was a 3bed semi-d1965 build and all works done circa 1980/90s so no paperwork would have existed in the first place.

Our solicitor made sure we were content that the attic was listed as storage and we were good to go. Even though it has carpets, velux, sockets, bed frame etc, same as yourself - as others have said above seemingly this is the norm for the majority of attic conversions.

It took them about 4-5 weeks to provide the certs, but it could probably be done quicker too. It seemed to be just a matter of them engaging an architect/engineer to inspect and sign off. Ola23, feel free to message me direct if you have any specific Qs.

electricrover88

Yeah, you have to make sure attic conversions suite your house, so important to consult and do the research

ola23

Mrs Bean,

Yes, That is exactly the same situation!

rob316

Pretty much every converted attic in Ireland is the same. You can't call it a bedroom due to the head room, needs to be converted to a dormer to be considered a bedroom

arctictree

Makes a bit of a mockery of the system to be honest. ie everyone knows its a bedroom but you cant say its a bedroom!