Rifle not grouping after cleaning

TheEngineer1

I zeroed the rifle this evening in prep for the opening day at the weekend. Last season I was cloverleafing but this evening the best I could manage was about a 2 1/2 inch group. Admittedly this was standing off of shooting sticks in a laneway (farmer hasn't cut the maize yet for me to get a proper zero off the bipod).

At the end of last season I cleaned my rifle with one of those bore foams that dissolve copper and lead. It was the first time I'd used one.

Is it normal for a rifle to need a few shots to return to previous accuracy after cleaning?

Cass

It can need "bedding" in but it's usually not that severe.

Multitude of issues such as;

• Scope had shifted/problem with scope.
• Issue with rings
• Bore is not thoroughly clean
• Ammo change or difference in batch
• Your shooting position

Most can be checked with a tightening of screws, a thorough cleaning, and a ladder and/or box test.

Most likely, if all other things are good, it's your stance/position. When testing you really want a steady and fixed shooting position. Everything should be 100% fixed and repeatable so you know the gun and scope are fine so any inaccuracies after can be down to the shooter. IOW if it's cloverleafs using a lying position with bipod and rear bag but spreads when you're standing you know the gun is spot on and it's something you're doing. However if it is open when laying down and using a bipod or rests then the issue is with the hardware.

Have you tried repeating the groups using a bipod and rear stabilizer at a fixed distance?

TheEngineer1

I haven't shot prone off the bipod at my usual zero range (180 meters) since before last season.

I did get one of those little spirit level kits recently and found my scope was canted ever so slightly so I straightened it up, hence the reason for re-zeroing. I'm confident in my mounts and screws.

Ammo wise, I'm using 130 grain softpoints. Same brand ones I was cloverleafing with last year.

To be fair, I haven't much practice shooting off of sticks although I am using my own home made quad sticks which feel solid when I'm aiming through the scope but I suppose are never going to be as good as a bipod and rear rest. I probably need more practice shooting off of sticks, making sure I'm putting the supports in the same place on the stock each time, ensuring the legs are correctly spaced for each shot, and making sure my head is resting in the same spot on the comb.

In any case, 2 1/2 inches at 140m should be more than minute of deer accurate for next weekend! Once the maize is cut I'll get the bipod out again and do a proper zero, hopefully the groups will tighten up then!

Grizzly 45

Bore foam! Thats your answer. It's known to throw groups on guns after use.So you have to fire a few rounds thru her to let it "rebed in the lead". Not really a good product for EDC unless you really can't see the lands and grooves anymore from lead build-up.

freddieot

I'd always use a patch or two with oil after using foam or any heavy cleaner. It helps terminate the aggressive action of the chemical.

Cass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121040034#Comment_121040034

If everything you say is as you say then it seems it's you, not the rifle. I'd still check to be sure.

As for cleaning, I detailed my process and I don't claim it's the best or only method but it's a good starting point however I always use meth spirits at the end of cleaning to wipe out any residual cleaner left in the barrel.

However I'd stress again the importance of checking the bore. Cleaned doesn't mean it's clean.

TheEngineer1

Decided to have a crack off trying to sort out the rifle again today. I cleaned the bore, stripped the silencer and washed it, and re tightened my scope mounts. After putting everything together, I shot the above three shot group at 110m off the bipod. Two shots are touching, and one flier. I didn't think I had pulled the flier but the ones that are touching looked good.

At 110m, I like to zero 5cm high so I'm dead on at 180, and 5cm low at 220m with 130 grain soft points. My scope is 1cm at 100m adjustments so I gave 4 clicks up and one click left shot another 3 (the boxes on the target are 25mmx25mm/ 1inch by 1inch and I'm aiming at the bullseye) That produced the following;

Again, two are touching and 1 is about 1.5 inches high of the other two. Again ignoring the flier, I dialled one click right to get exactly where I want and fired my last two bullets;

One hit 1.5 inches low of where I wanted, almost on the bullseye and the other went up 2.5 inches and 1.5 inches to the right. At this point I was absolutely stumped. There seems to be absolutely no consistency to my fliers and I know for a fact that I'm not pulling my shots by that much.

I tried a different ammo brand earlier in the day and got this;

Great, 3 shots in an inch, so dial right 4 clicks and down two clicks and fire two more. One hits the bullseye and one hits the top right diamond in the top right corner.

This is really starting to drive me demented!!

Cass

What is the make and model of rifle?

Heavy, medium or light barrel?

What is the caliber?

What ammo are you using? (Make/brand)

What make/model is the scope?

How old is the rifle and scope?

What rings?

Have you tried a different scope on the rifle to eliminate the scope as the problem?

What time,if any, are you leaving between shots?

How consistent are you with the replicating conditions when shooting?

Was it windy that day as it would explain horizontal strings?

Vertical strings are a sign of scope, rifle or ammo issues (assuming we eliminate you).

Have you tried ladder or box testing?

Sorry for all the questions but without seeing it in person it's hard to diagnose without asking for as much info as possible.

TheEngineer1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141013#Comment_121141013

Gun is a Tikka M65

Sporter barrel but not ultralight.

.270 Win

First groups are PPU 130gr softpoints, cheap as chips I know but has been really consistent for me last few seasons. Usually cloverleafing 3 shot groups. Second ammo type is Hornady whitetails, also 130gr softpoints. I also have some Fiocchi SPs and Remington Sirocco's to try tomorrow, although I'm reluctant to use the Remington's as I can't see them for sale anywhere in Ireland.

Scope is a Schmidt and Bender 8x56 which I bought new about 4 years ago. I have a Schmidt and Bender 6x42 on my rimfire that I could try but the first scope hasn't seen heavy use so I'm reluctant to change it. Rifle was manufactured in the 80s so it is old, however it was absolutely immaculate when I bought it so I suspect is was a safe queen for most of its life. Again, it was cloverleafing for me last year.

Left about 3/4 mins between each shot. Was not leaving the barrel get hot.

I was pretty consistent I think, I had a good shooting position, if I closed my eyes and took a few deep breaths and opened them my cross hairs were still on the bull. Took lots of dry fire shots while waiting for the barrel to cool for practice and took care to hold the trigger and follow through for the live shots.

Slight wind but I was in a laneway with maize on one side and a ditch on the other so well sheltered, especially when prone.

I'm not sure I've heard of ladder or box testing!

No I appreciate your thoroughness!

Cass

I had a Sauer in 30-06. Beautiful rifle, pristine condition and for the first two shots a laser. Third shot started to "wander" then it was was anyone's guess where the next rounds would go. Usually they climbed up and right.

My friend had the same rifle in 25-06 and his done the same only it climbed high and left.

No matter what was done neither of us could solve it and it seems a quirk of the rifles.

Back to your problem.

PPU is cheap and for a reason. Hard primers, inconsistent loads (even a few grains makes a difference), difference in seating depth, quality between batches, etc. All this can lead to problems with accuracy and consistency. I also find that .

So my first, and unpopular, bit of advice is scrap the ammo. SP rounds are never as good as BT in any caliber. So consider changing even if only for testing purposes. If the results are the same with better ammo then move onto the next check

Secondly, the scope. I got a brand new Sightron and Nightforce, out of the boxes, that were faulty. I've also had a scope work perfectly and then just go tits up. Usually it's an issue with the turrets or one of the lenses having some movement in it. So trust nothing and it's why I recommend changing scopes to see if the results are replicated. If so then it's not the scope, if not then the scope is the problem.

Light barrels can cause problems themselves. Harmonics, condition, too lightweight and not designed for multiple rounds, etc can all be issues. My reason for asking for age is barrels can burn out at various rates depending on caliber, age and history. .270, 7mm and other high energy rifles can have short barrel lives so no harm to have it checked if you can.

One aspect to look at is the crown. Sometimes the crown can cause a lot of your problems and for less than a €100 it's an easy fix and whether it's the problem or not, it's no harm to have it done regardless.

Ladder and box tests are methods to test your rifle and scope for accuracy, consistency and repeatability. Not to mention proper function of all the gear. Think I have it explained here, if you fancy a read.

Just trying to think of other issues so excuse any random posts as I may post when something comes to mind.

TheEngineer1

Thanks for the info Cass, really appreciate the level of detail!

Righto, I'll try those Fiocchis tomorrow, I also think I have some Norma BTs lying around so I'll give them a bash too. I'll have to look around to try a few more brands of BTs

If that doesn't work I'll swap scopes and if that's not it then I'll definitely try getting the barrel looked at. Could you recommend someone who could examine or recrown a barrel? Based in Munster but have no issues traveling.

And if the barrel is shot out I'd definitely keep the action to rebarrel it (maybe in .30-06). Any recommendations on someone to do that work?

Great info on the box method!

Cass

The only person I could recommend to either fix it for you or set you on the right path would be Small Arm Services.

@gunhappy_ie

freddieot

You've probably thought of this already but just looking at your earlier posts it seems the issues started arising around when you used a bubble level of sorts to check and remove a cant and then you rezeroed.

Levels are good but I've found they are strangely not always perfect for precise levelling . Are you sure the scope is now level as that can really mess with your click adjustments.

I have a level myself but ended up using a string and weight to get a perfect plumb line reference for my crosshairs.

My rifle shoots fine and yet the level had me a few degrees off.

Don't know why, no issues with other rifles, mounts and scopes, but it just was not right on my latest set up.

Croohur1

Ballistech on the Wicklow / Wexford border also recrown barrels AFAIK. Small Arms Services are Cork based I think so you might call him first if you are Munster based.

Heavy handed

Silly question but have you tried shooting a group with the moderator off. I’d a hausken years back and for some reason or another after a period of a few years I couldn’t get the rifle to group. Put a new hausken moderator on it and the gun was back grouping again.

.243

Another idea would be to get someone else to fire a group or two

TheEngineer1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121144163#Comment_121144163

That's funny, I actually have a hausken on it at the moment, about 4 years old. When I stripped it to clean it there was very noticeable wear in the baffles, lots of heavy pitting from the hot gasses. I know it's only aluminium to keep it lightweight and that the wear is to be expected but would that kind of pitting in the supressor affect the gun enough to cause it to throw shots?

JP22

Possibly, if it's effecting the air in front of or behind the round.

Heavy handed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121146387#Comment_121146387

It certainty affected mine that time. Affected it to the point where I had to change the moderator to solve the problem. The inside of my moderator was just shot out. Certainly worth a go to try a group with the moderator off to see does it solve your problem.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121146387#Comment_121146387

So when the gas expands into each of the expansion chamber and baffles it can move the bullet's path slightly if the places the gas goes are not perfectly even(ie some moderators have half cone baffles facing down on even numbered baffles, and facing up on odd numbered baffles).

So yes, heavy pitting can be enough to throw off shots because instead of the gas being siphoned off consistently it is instead inconsistent and uneven, which can destabilize the bullet to a degree.

Aluminium is primarily used for cheapness in moderators, lightweight is a nice benefit but the severe downside is it is nowhere near as wear resistant as steel or the best silencer material, titanium, which is both lightweight and very wear resistant, but correspondingly even more expensive than steel.

Another thing that I never thought of before a buddy suffered from it, sometimes the threads on a rifle or moderator can either not be cut well, or can be worn over time, which can result in the moderator threading on slightly differently every time and can lead to inconsistency.

Not sure that is your issue, but might be worth considering possibly?

TheEngineer1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159019#Comment_121159019

I don't suppose you'd still have said moderator lying around and might be able to get a pic of the baffles? Mine are pitted for sure but I don't think they're pitted to the point where it's gas cutting.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159227#Comment_121159227

The threads were done by Dominic Byrne before he wound up the custom rifle business. They look like they could have been done in the factory they are that clean and well machined. I'm confident in the threading.

I've been doing some googling in the meantime and I've across a lot of info regarding storing rifles with moderators attached causing pitting in the muzzle. I have been doing this (not anymore) but I have always made sure to have the threads oiled so they are clean, there is however very slight pitting inside the tip of the barrel, so slight that it's hard to see it unless in the right light and I'm not sure if that may be just due to the guns age or by keeping the silencer attached.

I have a big list of potential fixes ranging from changing ammo, mounts, scopes, removing moderators to checking the action screws, recoil lug/ bedding issues, stock swelling touching the barrel, and finally re-crowning or possibly rebarreling if none of those do the trick. I have a full day lined up at the weekend to have a go off it so will let you guys know the results.

Really appreciate all the suggestions!

Cass

Re-barreling would be the last resort. Cutting the end inch of the barrel then repairing with new crown and threading would be a better option.

That is assuming a new crown in itself does not resolve the issue

Heavy handed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159647#Comment_121159647

Sadly no I got rid of that moderator a long time ago. But I did have a hausken warranty replaced only last month. One baffle section was corroded a bit but the inside of the outer sleeve was all pitted from gas jetting. Although it didn’t affect accuracy any bit. Moderator hadn’t a lot of rounds down it. By the way I do have a buddy that does barrel work out in west limerick. If it comes to giving her a recrown or chopped back and bit and threaded again then he’ll be able to look after you

TheEngineer1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121161769#Comment_121161769

That's fairly nasty looking alright but mine doesn't look as bad as that. Mine is more bubbly looking pitting on the inside.

Thank you for the offer of putting me in contact with your barrel guy, I might be in contact after the weekend!

TheEngineer1

So I was running paper down the barrel channel and found that the barrel was not fully floated, there was a piece of the stock pressing into the underside of the barrel about 1.5 inches in front of the recoil lug. In the pics attached here you can see the raised piece of timber in the barrel channel, and the shiny piece of the barrel where this raised piece was in contact with the underside of the barrel. Is it worth sanding this down? I'm finding conflicting info online on whether this is a free floated or pressure supported barrel!

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121172671#Comment_121172671

Try contacting the manufacturer and ask, or look online for their spec sheet which should definitively say free floated if it is, or nothing if it is not.

Cass

There should be no contact between the barrel and stock. If it's floated then it's the action that is bedded.

The paper should go from the Fore-end of the stock to the front of the action with no impediment.

The touching, however subtle needs to be remedied as it will affect the barrel harmonics.

tikka646

Often wondered about that,tikka t3x synthetic stocks don't seem to be fully free floating,but the timber stocked ones are,at least in the ones I've looked at. Both varieties seem equally accurate though.

keith s

As mentioned above, find out if it is supposed to be free floated or not. Also find out if the have a recommendation for stock/ action screw torque.

Different pressure applied when on sticks, bipod or by your hand position, does this change... Does the stock touch the barrel more when you apply pressure, if so that could account for some difference in POI.

TheEngineer1

Problem sorted!!

After free floating the stock and going through every brand of ammo I could get my hands on I got the group on the right with Sako 120gr lead free ammo. Didn't even have to adjust my scope and put two shots into the same hole exactly where I wanted them. 3rd shot was well within an inch at 110m.

Thanks to everyone who suggested potential fixes. It gives me massive confidence for making shots while hunting now!

P.S. there'll be some unwanted .270 ammo going for peanuts in the for sale section if anyone wants a bargain on ammo!