Clampdown on TV 'Dodgy Boxes'

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624369#Comment_121624369

As I said earlier I pay 15 a month for Sky Sports with Now, cancel anytime.

I've previously paid 10 for it, I've had both BT and Sky Sports for a total of 15 for three months a few years ago.

I don't feel fleeced.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121623707#Comment_121623707

Youre not the last of the torrenters - Thats all I ever use and have used for around 20 years now - jesus didnt realise it was that long in existence. I remember torrenting on dial up!!!!

I did try card sharing though when it was a thing but it was a pain when the card sharer was raided and closed down.I probably only used it for a couple of years or so though.

Dont watch live TV that much but I do keep a Sky sub at the lowest possible price - think its €27.00 a month (no sports or movies) just for the odd time I do watch it.

SteM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624443#Comment_121624443

I don't know if you looked at the post I replied to but that was my point.

JDxtra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624446#Comment_121624446

If Sky embed a unique ID into every broadcast then they can tell what the original source is for the IPTV stream (the subscriber & the device). Yes, it will be a case of whack a mole - however, if they keep doing it (especially during big events) then the IPTV users will get frustrated with the drops in service.

Maybe they are already doing this and just gathering evidence?

Either way, I would expect to see movement on this issue this year. It's become too mainstream to ignore now.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624499#Comment_121624499

jesus, you re definitely more vintaged than me, dial up, feck sake....

was messing around with the old nagra boxes(starview (the codes, the codes!!!) etc), moved onto cable card sharing, but never actually connected it to a server, interesting though....

Hellrazer

Torrenting on dial up (at the time) was great in a weird sense of the word - if you got disconnected you didnt lose the download - you just picked up where you left off when it got disconnected - that was a huge thing.

I remember the old Nagra boxes alright - think I still have an old dreambox at home somewhere.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624526#Comment_121624526

It's just not that simple. I get the embedding a unique id part. The point I am making is Sky have no visibility over who is connecting to the iptv providers legitimate server. All they will see is them pushing out the unique id to a legitimate paying consumer.

I'd fully think you are correct though. They probably have a small team somewhere with multiple firesticks and such with IPTV subs and are actively trying to block the hosts.Again though if the host is using a VPN on their end it might be more difficult than that.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624636#Comment_121624636

...ah the dreambox, the holy grail, know a chap that made a fortune out of them, probably got himself through school with them, hes was bloody good to

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624526#Comment_121624526

They already do, sometimes you'll see a code above the Sky Sports logo in the top right corner which is unique to each receiver. A lot of the IPTV sources just block it out by overlaying another logo on top of it.

JDxtra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624662#Comment_121624662

No. I think you are misunderstanding. All they need to know is who is the one person with a legitmate sub. They can then cancel the subscription. They don't need to block anything.

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624683#Comment_121624683

Absolutely they can. Correct.

It obviously not possible if there are so many providers and streams available.

alzer100

Sky just sign up to a plethora of illegal IPTV providers and monitor the streams for a unique watermark that is associated with a Sky subscription but if there is technology to remove or make that watermark illegible, it's no use to them.

SteM

This so why so many providers that were active online have gone quiet lately. A lot of providers have come off the usual sites and are on closed discord groups now, makes things a little safer for them. They can still grow the service but it's slower.

alzer100

The unique watermark can be embedded into certain frames so it may also require equipment to view it. It's not just as simple as the illegal IPTV provider placing a constant logo over a unique number to conceal that number. However, it is supposedly possible to remove that watermark or distort it via specialist software and hardware.

RocketRaccoon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624463#Comment_121624463

For nothing?

I currently have netflix, Disney, apple, Spotify and prime video subscriptions. I use the iptv for sports, the others are kept for ease of use for my kids.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624455#Comment_121624455

Can only speak for myself but quality difference is negligible when I go to houses with Sky. IPTV looks great on my 55 inch TV and havent missed a big event / match yet through buffering / down time. Id say to anyone just make sure you have a good box / stick with the spec to handle it. Some are complete garbage.

I have this in the post at the moment (with the ugoos bluetooth remote control for air mouse gyro) as an upgrade for my current box:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004757068339.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FipqH1udV84

I guess its like anything. There's good and bad. Hopefully my provider stays online for another few years. Service is excellent.

batistuta9

Sky could disappear tomorrow and it wouldn't make a bit of difference to the vast majority tbh. What do they show that isn't broadcast elsewhere? Very little I think. If you miss Neville & carragher go with now TV or make do with the YouTube clips, the sky originals will be uploaded to the vod anyway, might actually be shown on some US channels too.

alzer100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624930#Comment_121624930

I wouldn't be too upset about picture quality tbh. In fairness the source stream is encoded about 3 times which can lead to the presence of digital artifacts but that's here nor there. Generally for what is being payed, it's great! My issue is more to do with stability of the stream which leads some people into thinking that their ISP is f****** with them (and sometimes that maybe the case) but what I've found in the majority of cases even going through a VPN, it makes no difference. They may become a victim of their own success if they don't address this.

TAFKAlawhec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121624893#Comment_121624893

The big problem here for Sky at present is that their premium channels aren't limited to being legitimately viewed by their own platform(s) i.e. you can subscribe to Sky Sports on Virgin Media on both sides of the Irish Sea. I've seen them use the nine digit Sky subscriber number under the DOG for quite a few years now, but given that it is nearly always in the same spot, it's relatively easy for a pirate to blank it out (or use an alternative stream that doesn't have the number generated on screen) - now, if it was the case that the subscriber number could flash up anywhere on a screen, that's much harder to successfully detect. In theory, Sky would only need one frame with the subscriber number embedded to know whom it was and cut them off. Ultimately it would be a game a whack-a-mole but the more successful Sky would be to keep whacking the moles, the more annoyed punters shelling out for such streams that get their premium content interrupted will lack tolerance for it (there's a good bit of past evidence that this whack-a-mole tactic works based on past form on satellite & cable piracy where keys for legitimate subscribers were being regularly updated while illegitimate viewers had to keep updating the keys up to several times a day - it wasn't worth it, especially if the keys were updated just before or during a big game, for example). It may not be a problem that has gotten out of hand at this present time, but it has the potential to be very serious indeed. And based on past form, it may be impossible to completely defeat, but enough hassle to make it not worth most people's while.

Cyrus

my brother pays 180 canadian a year to watch any PL game he wants (in vancouver) and its all above board. People would happily pay that i'm sure.

TAFKAlawhec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625142#Comment_121625142

That's because the EPL has only a small base that it can realistically market to in Canada, not to mention that at eight hours behind the UK, all games will be in the morning or afternoon local time so it's hardly convenient. Thus the local rights can be priced accordingly.

Now, try getting to shell out for NHL action over the course of a season in Vancouver (outside of possibly some local games) and I'd be pretty sure you'd be paying more than C$180 for the year for the privilege.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625142#Comment_121625142

But that's Canada.

PL games at 4:30am, 7am, 9:30am.

Of course it's only going to be CA$180.

The market to view it is tiny, the broadcaster paid feck all for the rights.

It's completely different from the UK or Ireland.

alzer100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625099#Comment_121625099

Yes, the embedded watermark would appear at different areas of the screen at distinct frames. This would make it easier for Sky but the other official carriers of Sky content would also have to implement the same watermark technology and then use it the same way as Sky. Of course, provided that the watermark has not been distorted. I would think highly funded illegal IPTV providers are able to acquire the services of the best hackers! It depends on how much that business is worth to them.

Manc-Red_

IPTV, especially via 28e is hacked then put onto a server for use via customers.

Can’t be brought back to a legitimate sub. No chance. Public hacks are now gone and private hacks are only for the few that utilise IPTV servers for their own benefit.

TAFKAlawhec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625471#Comment_121625471

The thing about a visible watermark is that unless it can read "something" to correctly predict when something will appear on screen, then even just one frame lasting 1/25th second containing the unique watermark before the blanking software kicks in can betray the pirate. It's also possible that they may test a subscriber watermark hours or days in advance (say 4.22 in the morning) and then disconnect the pirate two seconds before the big 4pm Sunday kick-off - they don't need to act immediately, just at the right time. It doesn't have to be a set of readable numbers either, could be something akin to a QR code or something that looks like an MPEG encoding artefact that's enough to make the blanking software trigger false positives etc which will annoy pirate viewers while leaving legit subscribers alone.

I suspect that when Sky eventually call time on their satellite service and go IPTV only themselves (when that'll happen, who knows, it could still be around in 10 years time or be gone within four), certain twists will start hitting the piracy whack-a-mole. They & others may never be able to completely defeat illegitimate IPTV streaming but they can make it un-worthwhile to organised criminal gangs that don't want the hassle - encryption keys that opened up most European pay-TV packages died long ago, and Sky eventually defeated the card sharers that ripped into their system.

Butson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121625340#Comment_121625340

Given how popular the Prem League is there and the awful times of the games, probably getting shafted paying that much.

alzer100

You also have to ask yourself how serious Sky really are with respect to tackling piracy if this article is anything to go by.

https://torrentfreak.com/sky-free-now-tv-security-hole-exposed-for-months-researcher-claims-230617/

irishgeo

People thought card sharing would never be blocked and look what happened there.

Sky have already throttling some IPTV services on their network. People say just use a VPN but that another cost and layer on top.

All the need to do is flip the code around some time and grab screenshots of the code. It would kill a few off.

Johnboy1951

The thing about a visible watermark is that unless it can read "something" to correctly predict when something will appear on screen, then even just one frame lasting 1/25th second containing the unique watermark before the blanking software kicks in can betray the pirate. It's also possible that they may test a subscriber watermark hours or days in advance (say 4.22 in the morning) and then disconnect the pirate two seconds before the big 4pm Sunday kick-off - they don't need to act immediately, just at the right time. It doesn't have to be a set of readable numbers either, could be something akin to a QR code or something that looks like an MPEG encoding artefact that's enough to make the blanking software trigger false positives etc which will annoy pirate viewers while leaving legit subscribers alone.

If the watermark is visible it can be blanked.

If it is only on a frame or two, thus essentially invisible to the naked eye, then passing the stream through a filter to drop that frame should clear the stream of any identifying mark.

If the source is being re-encoded then the filter can be built it.

IMO there will be ways to defeat anything implemented. The only concerns for the IPTV providers will be time to devise a defeat mechanism, and the cost of implementing it.

alzer100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121626149#Comment_121626149

In other words the illegal IPTV provider removing the infected frame(s) before the stream goes back onto the internet.

Just a question, is some of this extra filtering possibly producing the extra latency experienced on some streams from some illegal IPTV providers?