2002 Luas trams are end of life

markpb

There's a story in the Irish Times today that says the oldest Luas trams (2002 stock) are to be decommissioned, destroyed and replaced by new trams. 20 years seems like a very short life-span for trams. It's hard to imagine that they couldn't have been refurbished and kept in reliable service but obviously someone in TII has run the numbers and decided otherwise.

For comparison, TfL have trains that were introduced in 1972, refurbished in 1991-1995 and are still in active service. Amsterdam Metro has trams built in 1989 which were only retired 2 years ago. LA metro has trains in operation since 1993 which are only starting to be removed now.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/08/30/transport-infrastructure-ireland-to-spend-300m-on-luas-trams

magicbastarder

aren't some dart carriages about 40 years old?

Economics101

I would agree that 20 years is far too short. If there is good maintenance and a mid-life upgrade/refurbishment, then trams should last for about 40 years. This seems to be a pattern with rail rolling stock in Ireland: some very good stuff was discarded by Irish Rail when similar stock was kept going in the UK for far longer.

To be fair, the hoped-for order is partly to cater for proposed LUAS ectensions and possible developments in Cork. It might make more sense to add on some extra units for fleet replacements at the tail-end of the order, which might be well over 10 years away, knowing the snail's pace at which we do things.

blackbox

In other countries some trams look to be 50+ years old and working fine.

Can't imagine why something engineered for public commercial operation would only last 20 years. I have a car older than that.

afatbollix

It takes about 5 years to do a full procurement for trains so will be touching 30 years once it's all finished.

Those tube trains a shite and are held together by sticky tape.

Were these trams done on a buy-and-maintain contract when they were first bought? That contract could also be coming to an end? Other manufacturers wouldn't take on another brand so this is the only way to get the original company to not say any number from the sky and has to actually work out good value.

Sleepy

I wonder if it's actual end-of-life or just the end of the financial depreciation cycle for the assets?

A 20 year lifespan seems ridiculous for such expensive pieces of kit.

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058311754/2002-luas-trams-are-end-of-life

Their end of life is 30 years. This is an announcement that they're beginning the process of getting a contract in place for future fleet renewals, additions and replacements etc. So the original trams will still be around for another few years at least!

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121054827#Comment_121054827

"Those tube trains a shite and are held together by sticky tape". What on earth do you mean by this?

You make a good point about buy and maintain contracts. I'm sure that done properly they can work fine, but I wonder (a) if the LUAS maintainence is done on this basis and (b) what were the terms? Were they negotiated by a competent and experienced team?

Beta Ray Bill

20 years does seem a bit short but they are a light rail unit

I've heard stories (no fact behind them) that a good portion of the LUAS rolling stock was from a sale that fell through and/or was an old design, the government was able to procure the stock and supporting infra cheap so that's why it got built.

In the later case, sourcing parts for a refurb would be difficult, I'm guessing the stop start nature of the Luas, the Gradients and the quality of the track/road it runs on means (in mechanical terms) the rolling stock has probably had a very hard life.

Luas was planned and built quickly 1998 planning, 2001 construction started, 2004 opened.

bk

While it is possible they came from another order that feel through, they definitely weren’t an EOL design. They are one of the most popular tram models used in the world, with over 50 cities using them. And of course they have seen many upgrades over the years.

i agree though that they have been heavily used compared to other cities. Keep in mind that on tram lines are actually one of the busiest and highest capacity in the world. We use them more like a Metro, where others countries have actual Metro lines and use trams for quieter lines. So yes, they have been used hard.

However by the time the replacements arrive, it will be more like 30 years than 20. Which would make them double the typical lifespan of a double decker bus (14 years).

end of the road

i wonder what will happen to the newer sections of those trams? they definitely won't be 20 years old.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121054825#Comment_121054825

I was in Milan last year and was surprised to see that they still have some 1920s trams in active use.

electricrover88

The trains are just as worse. They need to start replacing them

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057613#Comment_121057613

"just as worse" as what? Are you referring to Milan or Ireland?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058311754/2002-luas-trams-are-end-of-life

Street trams and trains cannot be compared in longevity - trams are much lighter built and suffer more accidents. The core DART fleet is over 40 years delivered (39 in service).

And anyway, announcing this now means an order in a year or two at earliest and most likely a few years for delivery - probably longer if its not Alstom that win it, because they know the landscape and other vendors don't.

The proposal is for stock for replacement, service expansion and network expansion so early deliveries could be for Luas Finglas and more services before starting to replace the 3000/4000 class.

The idea of the Luas being 20 years in service is terrifying as I remember going out to Sandyford in the first week for the trip; not as kid or anything. That's yesterday surely...

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121055137#Comment_121055137

Whoever has the contract they can't get maintenance staff so trams are regularly out of service.

bk

“I was in Milan last year and was surprised to see that they still have some 1920s trams in active use.”

Those are historic or touristic trams, same as the famous ones in San Francisco.

They are basically kept around for tourists (though anyone can use them obviously) as it helps draw tourists to the city. They typically require massive amounts of maintenance, are expensive to maintain and frequently breakdown, but worth operating for the tourist money.

Most of the tram network, outside the tourist areas of course use modern trams.

Victor

At the start, they were expected to last 15 years. I think that that they have been driven hard compared to some other cities.

"the oldest Luas trams (2002 stock) are to be decommissioned, destroyed and replaced by new trams" - I think "destroyed" is a bit pejorative here. If they can be kept going on an economic basis, they will. After that, there will be a certain amount of cannibalisation for parts and then they will be dismantled and recycled.

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121060101#Comment_121060101

30 June 2004. However, that was after a period of trial operation and after they were built.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121060075#Comment_121060075

To be fair, the red line has had an oversupply of trams available compared with the numbers that are actually required in service each day, since the 5XXX series took over the Green Line service completely.

Overall fleet utilisation has certainly dropped since then.

dowlingm

Tolerances and lifespans in low floor trams, especially 100pc low floor which so many newer fleets have, are hard to compare with fully high floor where you have so much more room for sturdy axles and so on. just look at Ottawa where they have come an almighty cropper with the reliability of their Citadis-ish low floor units - for example:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/axles-bearings-lrt-subcommittee-inquiry-report-1.6826115