Change to derogation

Say my name · 17-10-2023 1:02pm

@emaherx you seem very peeved that anyone would pay money for land rent yet not farm that land for their own benefit.

Yet you've no problem with anyone taking land to farm?

It's the system has the first farmer doing so. The way they obviously think is they have enough land of their own to fully feed stock without farming that land. It's the system that was dreamt up is making that farmer take that land on paper. They're no more wrong than the farmer taking land to farm.

I take land to farm. And I make and post how I see the situations. If you've to farm you've to be completely pragmatic and not dogmatic in these situations or with farmers.

Bass Reeves · 17-10-2023 1:23pm

Before the quota's ended there was a case where a large dairy farmer got caught supplying milk in another dairy farmers name. He was bribing the truck driver as all the milk was collected from his unit. There was much debate here as not only did the truck driver lose his job but there was substantial penalties imposed on the dairy farmer suppling the milk in the other farmers name.

The issue was debated on this forum. There was one large operators here giving out about the person who made the complaint to the processor/department. However a good few here myself included made the point that this effects individual farmers and issues like this are not victimless.

If you carry on such actions a d are complained about or caught do not expect any sympathy. Lads that bend the rules the most tend to fairly substantial operators and generally can manage without carrying out such actions. It's was the same with Angel dust and hormones when they were banned it was not the lad fattening 20-30 bullocks that got access to them illegally. Its similar to illegal drugs in horse racing and showjumping.

It one thing a lad exporting sub 10K gallons to remain under 170kgN/HA. But lads ignoring the rules completely are generally not the average lad with 60-100 cows. Itsxwas similar with lads putting cattle into other farmers herds as an older farmer did not want to rent land and only draw the payments and ANC.

The rules are there is you break them and get caught or someone gets p!ssed off and makes a complaint it's on your own head. The rest of the lads abiding by the rules are getting f@@ked over

Say my name · 17-10-2023 1:44pm

There's people ploughing and tilling land today without any derogation on nitrates.

That ploughed and tilled ground will release 20 to 30 mg/litre whilst the permanent pasture ground will average around 5 mg/litre. That's derogation land in pasture included. The cow releases nitrates in dung with a carbon source to hold that nitrate. Urine is tricky. But for the talk of slurry at least the urine is mixed with a carbon source to slow down leaching. Coupled with when it's spread on ground under plant cover (permanent pasture) with an intact microbiome and soil carbon to boot it's the hardest situation to get nitrate to leach away.

Contrast this with what is allowed and promoted and not vilified in this country and hardest on ground (life, carbon). That is tillage. You till the ground. You expose the soil life to degradation. That exposes their carbon to oxidation to CO2 gas which allows the nitrates which they held to leach away.

So you have the cow with a derogation at a leachate rate of 5.

And a tillage with a leachate N rate of 20 to 30. With no derogation or license.

But that's the anti cow, pro tilling for plant EU we live in today.

One's vilified and constantly argued about in the press. The other is silence.

emaherx · 17-10-2023 1:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249567#Comment_121249567

Yet you've no problem with anyone taking land to farm?

Yes, wouldn't it be great to see the land count against the nitrates allowances of a farmer who'd actually farm it instead of one using it to create a lie so they can cram as much as physically possible into an area smaller than claimed.

Also it's driving up rental prices of marginal land in a totally different part of the country, pushing it out of reach of the locals.

It's the system has the first farmer doing so. The way they obviously think is they have enough land of their own to fully feed stock without farming that land. It's the system that was dreamt up is making that farmer take that land on paper. They're no more wrong than the farmer taking land to farm.

No, it's circumventing the system that has them doing it. Of course they are more wrong than the farmer farming it, if nitrates levels of the most intensive farms end up much higher than reported. I won't disagree about the flaws in the system, we all have to live by the same rules, but degrees by which individuals are willing to flout the rules to put themselves above others is concerning.

Say my name · 17-10-2023 1:55pm

Emaherx all they'd have to do is put a couple of weanlings on the land then for you to be satisfied.

It's the landowner and the person taking are involved.

As far I see in all this the land is most likely being farmed anyway. But by someone else.

If you were a dept of ag minister or official what would you do @emaherx to resolve the situation? And how?

Jack98 · 17-10-2023 2:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249667#Comment_121249667

You said previously on here that you had exported slurry some years to keep below the 170, what do you make of lads in sporting slurry to stay under the 170 but it’s only ever a paper exercise nothing is ever transferred in reality how could that be rectified it’s similar to manipulation of maps really?

emaherx · 17-10-2023 2:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121249825#Comment_121249825

And who is looking after those weanlings?

We've had that guy doing that here locally, weanlings were on the road daily as they had little grass and no checking of fences, with all the local farmers getting the blame, calls daily about "their" cattle being on the road and the actual owner 2 counties away.

No idea what I'd do as minister for Ag, but I suspect satellite inspections and AI will be used eventually to work out exact stock numbers on land and where. I don't always agree about the rules but that is not the issue either.

K.G. · 17-10-2023 2:25pm

But are ye missing the point really abit.if he s taking 200 acres to cover nitrates what kinda loading is going on at home.we have several blocks of land in our area that are not being farmed but it's owed by wealthy people who just want to have it and either have environmental notions or want to secure it protect other property or as an investment or whatever.no difference really

Say my name · 17-10-2023 2:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121250019#Comment_121250019

There'll be points both financially and from a fodder point of view when taking land to not farm it just won't be viable.

I could have a thousand cows on a postage stamp but they still need to be fed.

It's all land, land, land atm in this country. 🙂

cjpm · 26-10-2023 6:40am

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/public-health-and-nature-at-risk-as-half-the-countrys-raw-sewage-entering-waterways-warns-epa/a835545400.html

Public health and nature at risk as half the country’s raw sewage entering waterways, warns EPA

alps · 26-10-2023 8:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121284925#Comment_121284925

Whats being dished out on farmers here is a disgrace...profoundly obscene.

RightTurnClyde · 26-10-2023 9:11am

Convenient aswell that report was held until after derogation changes were made.

Siamsa Sessions · 26-10-2023 11:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285196#Comment_121285196

If this type of information is being deliberately held back, it just reduces what little credibility EPA and the Govt have left when it comes to water quality.

And there's some lads who will use that as an excuse to carry on as they like when it comes to slurry.

jaymla627 · 26-10-2023 11:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285024#Comment_121285024

The kiwis f**ked out the labour government that had been orchestrating something similar to what our government is doing to us, the rural backlash cost them a huge amount of seats in that election, issue for irish farmers bar a few strong rural td's we have no mainstream parties in opposition that would roll back the regulations been put on us they'll all toe the EU/Epa line

alps · 26-10-2023 1:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285578#Comment_121285578

We can't honestly keep returning the same parties that we have done for the past 30 years, that have really screwed us over of late, and expect a different outcome.

Is it time to bite the bullet and risk an alternative?

RightTurnClyde · 26-10-2023 1:34pm

After a lifetime of voting FG not a hope would I vote for either them or FF in any election. It will be independents or I'd even give Aontu a try if they run a candidate in this area.

Either won't win a majority but if a 5% green minority can dictate how the country is run maybe a group of rural independents or the likes can dilute the sh1te that's going on in the dail

Birdnuts · 26-10-2023 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121285577#Comment_121285577

In fairness to the EPA they have never held back on the sewage issue which has featured in all their reports on water quality up till now - the report itself is interesting in that the raw sewage issue appears to be 99% at coastal towns/villages rather than affecting inland streams,lakes etc. which are under pressure from Septic tanks as well as Agri sources. At the end of the day the Derogation loss was primarily down to the failure to implement existing laws leading to too many clowns being indulged on the likes of wet weather slurry spreading in the depths of winter etc.

Say my name · 26-10-2023 5:13pm

https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/indicators/nitrate-in-groundwater-8th-eap?activeAccordion=ecdb3bcf-bbe9-4978-b5cf-0b136399d9f8

We got the derogation reduced because of the lobbying from the epa and the various ngo's in Ireland to the ministers in Europe.

In the previous round they made sure a stipulation was that water quality had to improve not be held or deteriorate to hold the derogation.

So you have the third best country in the EU for water quality having their own ngo's stipulating that it has to improve again. So the cow stocking rate depends on no increase in tillage (it has increased according to McConalogue), no increase in human population ( we've a million more than just a few years ago), no increase in air temperatures and droughts ( more biological activity and carbon burn off, drought make your own mind it happens).

We had a farming system of our own unique way. But if we follow European and US models the nitrate leaching goes up. It's mana for some in this country to aspire and drool over.

Siamsa Sessions · 26-10-2023 5:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287240#Comment_121287240

The editorial in the IFJ last week was dribbling over all the “tools” dairy farmers in the US have.

So not content with taking on Brazil in beef, the “industry” here seem to think we can now take on the US in dairy.

Say my name · 26-10-2023 6:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121287440#Comment_121287440

There won't be a dairy industry here in the future such is the meddling and interference in dairy farming in this country. The drop in supplies this autumn is just the start. You'll push someone around so far and then they'll leave.

Bass Reeves · 27-10-2023 1:16am

The EPA for all it's flaws tests water at different places from below urban centers to above them, all the way along water courses.

MCPA is very close to being banned or curtailed. The reason being is the EPA can show it distribution into the water system from minor watercourses. A drop of MCPA will show it's effect along a 30 km length of a waterway.

The EPA can show the exact same with Nitrates and phosphate's. Sewerage pollution from urban centers is actually an issue along waterways where agriculture pollution is not an issue. The area that are still at 250KgN/HA.

The areas where urban centers have not got a pollution issue is where Agri pollution is an issue.

By the way septic tanks are generally not a pollution issue

roosterman71 · 27-10-2023 9:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121288954#Comment_121288954

That implies that the EPA are able to determine that the nitrate source is urban or ag. @Say my name mentioned they don't do this here but is possible and is done in the states. Somethiing about the way the N binds to the carbon is it or something differes between agricultural and other.

Anyway, all these tests are great and all but they don't take into account soil type, farming practices around the test sites (cows/tillage/forestry/etc), the preceding weather and it's impact and possibly more. The bottom line is they test for Nitrates, and if they aren't improving cow numbers are restricted, regardless of what the root cause is. Just look at the EPA map. Parts of the Wicklow mountains are marked. Leitrim is all marked and only 1 farmer in derogation there. Kerry has many in it and half the county or more is not marked

alps · 27-10-2023 9:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121288954#Comment_121288954

You're dreaming bass..

EPA assign a loading to a catchement based on numbers. They have no way of determing the difference between the sources other than that.

Stated fact by EPA staff at the joint Oireachtas Committee when questioned by Tim Lombard.

fulldnod · 27-10-2023 10:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121289318#Comment_121289318

He dreaming every day, the shite he talks is painful

Bass Reeves · 27-10-2023 11:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121289318#Comment_121289318

They take sample all over the place they trace pollution right up to stream level. You do not need to differentiate the type. If you are testing above urban centers you will know what is coming from where.