Change to derogation

xl500

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121407142#Comment_121407142

I don't need any qualification I just need to read the reports our waterways are destroyed by agricultural activities

It's a disgrace

xl500

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121407347#Comment_121407347

They may not be my enemy but they certainly are the waterways enemy

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121407028#Comment_121407028

Ah here. Chill the beans

1. Agriculture are actually lowering emissions. No other industry is. And if the powers that be get their finger out and actually calculate the sequestration of carbon on agricultural land, every other industry is going to be shown to be absolute louts in the emissions game. It's why the likes of the UAE have bough land mass the size of the UK so they can "offset" their emissions somewhere else.
2. Farmers are taxpayers too. Supports farmers receive are for a) keeping high quality cheap food flowing and b) for undertaking environmental schemes. The derogation change will mean lower income on farms now and if anything, the taxpayer and EU will need to step in and pay more. Ironic isn't it?
3. Nitrates across the country won't improve due to a subset of farms reducing cow numbers, or by exporting their slurry, or by taking on additional land. The latter 2 means the same N is produced and it will still have to go somewhere
4. Rivers and lakes may improve, but it won't be because a subset of farms reduce cows, or expand their landholding (both are options). Farming practices, weather, soil types, etc play a bigger role according to research done by Teagasc. Let's not forget Uisce Eireann are pumping raw sewage into waters in 18 locations constantly, more when it rains. Lets not forget that parts of Wicklow with no cows is showing no water improvements thanks to forestry (Leitrim the same). Lets not forget that tillage is responsible for higher Nitrate leaching than dairy.

Carry on believing the spin though. But don't be expecting to be gloating and not be pulled up on your false beliefs

White Clover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408182#Comment_121408182

I'd say go back and read the reports again with an open mind.

You are coming across as a troll here.

xl500

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408377#Comment_121408377

No gloating but I can only presume you have a vested interest

And again why should the EU and taxpayer have to step in and support farmer's they don't do it for a factory that can't be efficient

Again our waterways are destroyed mainly by agricultural activities

xl500

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408426#Comment_121408426

I have a very open mind and it's clear our waterways are destroyed and it's mainly due to agricultural activities and if you want to call me a troll to try to discredit me well again I can only presume you also have a vested interest in continuing to pollute

GrasstoMilk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408438#Comment_121408438

He didn’t say eubwould have to support farmers. He said farmers reducing output will be paying less tax which means less income for government

farmers pay a lot of tax, you do know that ?

fulldnod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408197#Comment_121408197

But it's OK for ure shite to end up in it

xl500

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408706#Comment_121408706

Of course it's not

xl500

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408503#Comment_121408503

No they don't pay a lot of tax

xl500

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408503#Comment_121408503

I think you might want to read it again he did indeed say EU would have to step in and support farmer's

Jack98

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408772#Comment_121408772

Farmers pay no tax and they aren’t subsidized by the EU and taxpayers to ensure food security by making food affordable everyone knows that pal lol

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408438#Comment_121408438

Don't be assuming.

EU and taxpayer steps in all the time. There's big tax breaks, welfare, grants, subsidies, etc across the board.

Our waterways are among the best in Europe.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408761#Comment_121408761

Care to back that up?

Or where can we see the data?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408772#Comment_121408772

I did. The taxpayer would support those whose income is eroded by virtue of government decisions

leoch

Well we're do u think ur shite end up then u arse hloe

alps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408755#Comment_121408755

And your chyte gets taken to the river for free..

mr.stonewall

@xl500 do you use a septic tank or are you connected to mains sewerage.

greysides

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121408426#Comment_121408426

MOD: .... and here!

@xl500, do not post again in this thread! Disregard this warning and you'll be banned from F&F.

Now, the rest of you! You should know better than to amuse a troll. You may have heard me say this once or twice before.....

@leoch, your comment only serves to give a troll something to counterclaim with. Not at all useful when trying to moderate!

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121410372#Comment_121410372

If you can't grasp basic economics and understand the multiplier effect the agricultural economy has on rural towns and villages then god help you, numerous worldwide studies show that for every 1 dollar/euro a dairy cow generates in gross income for the farmer, this has a multiplier effect from 5-7 times that amount in the economy

Shoog

It's true that in the intensive diaring areas cattle are the primary source of waterways pollution. The EU has been monitoring this situation for decades, and they finally lost patience with Irish farmers and politicians that they were going to address the issue. They removed the derogation for this reason.

In the rest of Ireland stocking rates have been falling as the incentives to overstock have been removed. In much of the west cattle have been replaced by sheep ( who are far less polluting) because they are easier to manage and lighter on waterlogged land. This is the primary reason why water quality had been improving in these areas.

Removing the derogation was the appropriate way to address water catchment pollution in the intensive cattle areas. The acceptance in the Irish population that this was the correct thing to do is extremely high so farmers protests on this issue will get zero traction.

smallbeef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121410511#Comment_121410511

you are taxed on PROFIT. Farmers on the whole make very little profit, well over half make less than 10k. That's why the tax figures are low. Its not rocket science.

Say my name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121410508#Comment_121410508

The same could be said of any farming enterprise. In the intensive tillage areas tillage are the primary source of water pollution. In the sheep areas like you mentioned sheep are now the primary source of water pollution.

The EU didn't lose patience it was the dept of agriculture and the ministers failure to put any case together and letting deadlines lapse that led the commissioner to believe there was no interest from the Irish side. The dept have been changing their ranks to more anti animal agriculture in recent years. I know as there's a fert and chem sales yard where employees are moving from to be employed in the dept. If you are anti dairy and anti animal you'll be hired by the dept.

Timoleague showed reductions in N in water and an increase in animals. But the commissioner has not been briefed on this.

Siamsa Sessions

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121410703#Comment_121410703

Just to add another case: I'm in an intensive dairy area with the river Mahon running thru the middle of us. That river supplies drinking water to much of Waterford city. The derogation is staying at 250kg for this area according to the EPA's naughty map.

Crude general statements like sheep = good, cows = bad do nothing to help waterways.

lostkeys

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121410592#Comment_121410592

That may very well be the reason but all that was said was farmer's don't pay a lot of tax the reason for this are many but it's still a fact they don't pay a lot of tax

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121410511#Comment_121410511

Ya don't know much about revenue either it seems. Tax is paid based on incomes to the business/individual. If the tax take is low, then the money generated was low. i.e low profit. Ya dig? Business pay less tax because they pay wages - wages comes out of the pot before the tax is calculated. The receiver of the wages pays tax on that. Have a read of how the tax system works. It's not simple so take your time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121410508#Comment_121410508

Thats not true (nice to see ya again after ya were threadbanned over in the Green thread for spouting scutter). Many areas are in the red map, including the forestry in Wicklow. How will they improve water there when there is no cows to cull? It's like the criteria was wrong - show signs of water improvement. Culling cows won't make a difference when soil type, weather, management, land use are all a bigger factor than the #cows on an area.

Fair amount of the NW in the red zone

And a map of the derogation herds

Those NW sheep are doing serious damage.

Oh and look at NW Kerry where the derogation herds are concentrated yet the EPA say water quality improved. It's like there's no correlation at all. Jaysus even a chunk of the Burren is not showing water improvements. Damn rocks

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411065#Comment_121411065

Because they don't make a lot of profit!

Is this hard to understand? Browse this thread and you'll see people worrying about the 2022 tax bill on the back of a good year of prices, and having to pay it from 2023 monies where prices have collapsed.

lostkeys

Looks to me like a tad over-moderation going on here

Because XL500 posted some differing views they were threatened with a ban whatever happened to lively debate or is that banned as well

lostkeys

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411100#Comment_121411100

All that was said was farmer's don't pay a lot of tax and that's true

The reasons why is of course related to income and profit but it doesn't change the fact they don't pay a lot of tax

Say my name

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121410865#Comment_121410865

You measure the N level and act accordingly. Accordingly means you want to tell that farmer to have a permanent green cover on the land or increase the carbon level in the soil to hold the N.

Instead we're too busy putting figures on cows when it's the cows and the bio nutrients that increase the carbon that holds the N. So we're now enforcing farmers to export bio nutrients to non livestock farmers and telling the livestock farmers to replace these with artificial fertiliser bought from the merchant where the dept officials did their time. So the artificial gets spread but adds no carbon which increases the chances of leaching on the livestock farms. Which then puts pressure on livestock limits as it's livestock blamed and not the bought in bagged N. So livestock limits are reduced again but then the non livestock farmers loose their imported bio nutrients which causes them to buy from the merchants again which causes them to wear down carbon levels again through the tillage and increase their chances of leaching.

The merchant still sells the same quantities of bagged N but its moved from Billy to jack and back to Billy again.

alps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121410508#Comment_121410508

Your first scentence, the backdrop to your beliefs, is apallingly incorrect.

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121411194#Comment_121411194

Worst rivers in Dublin - the home of vegetable production and over a million souls.

And Cork with the best rivers with the most derogation farmers and biggest cow population.

That graph must be backwards :-)