Is the UK now giving off strong Third World vibes?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141672#Comment_121141672

The hole in your analysis is that Labour were in power between 1964-1979 with a gap between 1970-1974. There was plenty of time to reform things and nothing was done. The unions played a significant role in their own downfall. Thatcher did what she did because she had the public behind her. It's the same reason she never touched the NHS.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141709#Comment_121141709

Unfortunately the Labour party attempted the reforms just before the advent of Maggie. The already militant unions rejected their plans and caused the collapse of the Labour government under general labour unrest. They tried but the pattern of disfunction was already locked in at this stage. Some might say that Maggie was a necessary evil, but her approach went far deeper than simply reforming the unions.

Let us also not forget that the Labour party is drawn from the same well of public school educated middle class so they had little actual faith in the working class to be partners.

In final summation the class system has been the undoing of the UK ever since it stopped been an asset in the time of Empire.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141723#Comment_121141723

What I'm taking away from this is that the unions handed Thatcher the cudgel to bludgeon them to oblivion with. 10 years is a lot of time to fix something like this and the unions are very influential within the Labour party, public schoolboys or not.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141729#Comment_121141729

I would tend to agree, but the other side of the coin was that the management never honestly came to the negotiating table to make a compromise possible.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136528#Comment_121136528

What are the wages like if you were to transfer to Britain?

Edit to add, a London wage comes with a London cost of living, not the average for the rest of England.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141761#Comment_121141761

All I can say is unless you are a specialist the UK is a low wage economy.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141753#Comment_121141753

Sure but that could have been resolved by a Labour government. There was no shortage of time to do so and, presumably, what was then West Germany would have had sufficiently close ties to the UK for its model and its results to be known.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141769#Comment_121141769

If you're a specialist, it's a low wage economy as well. Certain specialities can do well, particularly if they can get good London jobs and work remotely but on the whole, salaries here are pitiful.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141672#Comment_121141672

Management was bad because it was so top down and it eventually led directly to the collapse of British industry

This is only part of the story. The real reason for the collapse of British industry was the disappearance of their tied markets, i.e. the British Empire. Management didn't need to be great under those circumstances, as they had a huge overseas market who didn't have access to competing products. As long as they produced a product, they could sell it. I recall reading somewhere a few years back that cars sold on the Irish market were always of a lower spec. than the same car on the British market. I'd guess the Empire suffered the same way.

Now, the UK has left the EU and it's decline is continuing. I see this as similar to Irish decline in the 19th century after being subsumed into the UK. We continued to decline after independence (there may have been an element of punishment by the Brits there), and after leaving the EU, Blighty is now finding itself in much the same position; it is being punished, particularly as the EU doesn't want to see any other members leave the club.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141900#Comment_121141900

That punishment from the EU is more a response to British negotiating tactics. The EU doesn't seem to be giving any leeway at all, give an inch and they take a mile.

K-9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121140752#Comment_121140752

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_Kingdom

Can be hard to get a consistent measure but that would seem to reflect a rise in poverty from 1979 to 1985. A big improvement under Blair, which stayed roughly about the same up 2014/15. It would seem to be on the rise since then, policy changes on Social welfare, cost of living crisis etc. Interesting bit on Maggie's time:

Figures from the European Commission estimated that from 1975 to 85 the number of people living in poverty had doubled in Britain, from just over 3 million to 6.5 million. In 1975, the United Kingdom had fewer people living in poverty than Germany, Italy, Belgium, and Luxembourg. By 1989, Britain had a higher poverty level than each of these four countries. In 1989, 12% of the British population was estimated to be living in poverty, compared with 11.7% in Italy, 8.5% in Germany, 7.9% in Luxembourg, 7.4% in the Netherlands, and 7.2% in Belgium.

Shoog

People misunderstand,people living in poverty is the intent not an accident.

yagan

What's deceptive about England is that all around in its architecture there are fantastic remnants of former worldly wealth. It reminds me of people praising the Georgian era streetscapes of Dublin without fully understanding that premier addresses like Mountjoy Square had become terrible slums in the decades after the act of union. The Victorian age which dominates most English cities barely happened in Ireland, aside from the train stations.

K-9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142809#Comment_121142809

Indeed.

When you get people like Liz Truss, Kwarteng, Dominic Raab and Priti Patel in power, people who believe the British working class are lazy welfare spongers, who get what's coming to them, what's going to happen?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/30/british-idlers-how-a-2012-attack-on-uks-work-ethic-could-haunt-liz-truss

Off course she denied she wrote that passage in the book, but it was telling Boris appointed all of them to his cabinet, and then the party elected Truss as leader. It's an example of the Maggie disciples who have taken over the party, add in hardline Brexiteers who don't care about economic consequences, just sovereignty (losing their power)...........

It's the difference in priorities in both main political parties, the Tories don't care if welfare is cut (its your own fault for being on welfare or low wages), barring red wall Tories for selfish reasons and they've given up because the writing is on the red wall.

For all the giving out about new Labour and boring Starmer, they'll prioritise looking after the disadvantaged because it is in their DNA. That's why the talk of Starmer having no charisma is so dangerous, it's irrelevant to peoples lives. Policy is.

Unflushable Turd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141761#Comment_121141761

mine is pretty much the same, but I was on a fixed term contract in Ireland, whereas in England I am perm and get the pension, healthcare etc that goes with that. It isn't a particularly specialist role or London weighted. My wife is earning a lot more and is no longer on a zero hours contract, so is being paid more and getting paid for holidays and gets a pension.

i really don't get the whole "London" prices thing. I lived in an affluent area on the edge of Dublin, I now live in an affluent area on the edge of London and there is a hell of a lot less price gouging here. My local shop is a bit more expensive than Tesco and generally sells good quality produce, whereas my local Centra was an absolute **** rip off and sold utter shite.

Some things are more expensive, my 30 minute journey to work is £8 here and it was €4 on the Dart, the journey here is twice times the distance though.

The UK is certainly not a Low wage economy any more than it is a third word country. Take a look at the salaries in Slovakia or Hungary to get an idea of what low wage means. This doesn't mean wages in the UK aren't low, because a lot are thanks to massive amounts of immigration from eastern europe, however this appears to be changing now and you I havent seen any jobs advertised here for under £10 per hour.

Unflushable Turd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142576#Comment_121142576

how are you defining poverty?

K-9

Wages are going up because of the cost of living crisis though, most people aren't better off than they were 2 years ago. Same point applies here though.

It's hard to define without doing a dissertation on it! I did state it is hard to get a consistent, like for like study, plus the definition of poverty is different to 50 years ago, because the standard of living should be higher.

mariaalice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142990#Comment_121142990

London is not the whole of the UK, the jobs thing is to do with a bigger jobs market plus the UK hasn't quite got to the college for everyone stage yet. I know a few college dropouts or went straight to work individuals in the UK who now have very senior positions in the UK, just wouldn't happen here.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142990#Comment_121142990

Dublin is borked, I won't deny that and am glad my recent tenure there was brief.

However I am puzzled by your grocery story. In the half decade I was too and froing via ferry I found no real difference in price in Aldi and Lidl. The main noticeable difference was alcohol prices which are more dictated by differing taxes. Centra aren't great value compared to any Aldi/Lidl or Tesco in Ireland, which makes me wonder if you did your main shopping there you're hardly price sensitive.

I wonder how your wage would stack up elsewhere in England outside the southeast.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132371#Comment_121132371

I live in Dundalk. There wouldn't be 3 Dunnes, 2 Tescos, 2 Lidls and 2 Aldis in the town if everyone was doing their shopping in the North. The Family Home Tax is a lot higher in NI and GB.

Unflushable Turd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121143155#Comment_121143155

I'm not sure what you mean by "College for Everyone". With the student loans being so easily accessible, anyone can go on to tertiary education if they want to and there are loads of alternatives, such as apprenticeships. The further and higher education seems to be a lot less focused on getting a university degree and the job market rightly reflects that.

Ireland just seems obsessed with getting a degree and the cluster **** of the last few years really shows up the flaws in that logic.

Unflushable Turd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121143220#Comment_121143220

my job offer was to work in any of the dozen or so offices we have in the UK, ranging from London to Bristol to Edinburgh. The salary was the same for all. There are higher paid jobs in London only because companies need to pay that and I could have earned maybe ten percent or so more if I had chosen to work in central London. I have worked in London before and it is an amazing place to work, especially in the City or Canary wharf, but for me now, it isn't what I am looking for.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121143900#Comment_121143900

I'm still flabbergasted that you'd compare centra to Tesco.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121143900#Comment_121143900

Obviously not the sort of none specialist jobs we were discussing then. As was said if you have an in demand specialty then UK wages can be great - tell that to the people working in the service industry though and they won't be impressed at your boasting.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121143900#Comment_121143900

If you were to point a gun at me so I had to pick one, it would be Bristol, nice enough small city in its own right, out of the way, good climate for UK, genuinely nice nearby places like Bath, Wells, Glastonbury plus you have Welsh Brecon Beacons and the coasts of Devon and Cornwall not far away. London within 2 hrs by train.

Scotland too cold and wet, London too ..... Londony.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121144090#Comment_121144090

Big employers are desperate to break up even specialties into 2-3 'McJobs' where they can.

For instance in software development, a proper development role can be broken up into 'parts' and then given to two underpaid Indians to do completely separately and then finally the (often quite incoherent) work is sloppily stitched back together by someone else already on the payroll. The dip in quality with this kind of approach can be shocking, further chipping away at the UK's reputation.

This can't be done with everything of course. Anywhere it can be done it is done though, at least according to what I've personally encountered.

The drive to cut labour costs above all else strikes me as nihilistic. With monetary inflation around housing it all has a bang of 19th century rentier capitalism about it.

For Forks Sake

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137558#Comment_121137558

UK PCP finance frequently far higher interest rate than here and it would be very rare to see the 0% rates that are sometimes on offer here.

Skoda IRL UK

Octavia - IRL 2.9% UK 6.9%

Superb - IRL 2.9% Uk 6.9%

Enyak EV - IRL 1.9% UK 6.9%

Kia IRL UK

Sportage - IRL 3.9% UK 7.9%

EV6 IRL 1.9% UK 4.9%

Volkswagen IRL UK

Golf IRL 4.9% UK 6.9%

ID3 EV IRL 1.9% UK 4.9%

Renault IRL UK

Zoe EV  IRL 4.9% UK 7.9%

Megane EV IRL 4.9% UK 7.9%

Peugeot IRL UK

Ireland - 4.65% across entire range

UK - 6.5% across entire range

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132393#Comment_121132393

There are little employment propsects in the north. Private sector opportunities are very low.

But if you can live in the north and work in the south, you could have the best of both worlds, financially.

Its true that the average salary in ireland is higher than in the north, but I dont think its high enough to offset the price differences and cost of living.

I know plenty of folks in the UK on average salaries in their 30s. they all have mortages and holiday each year.

I also know plenty of folks in Dublin on average salaries and only 1 couple owns their own home. (mortgaged)

Anecdotal, I know, but I certainly dont buy that irelands average paid are better off than those in the UK.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121143858#Comment_121143858

UK Council tax is higher than Ireland property tax, thats true.

But thats the only thing cheaper in Ireland. By all other measures, the UK is much cheaper.

A supermarket shop can easily be half the price in the UK vs Ireland.

I guess the cost of fuel and time to go up north from Dundalk will deter some folks from shopping up north, but there are plenty down in Dublin and beyond that shop up north.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142810#Comment_121142810

The northside of Dublin is an embarrasment. But those same properties on the southside (Merrion Square, Sandymount, Ballsbridge, Ranelagh, Rathmines, Rathgar, Terenure etc) are generally stunning and inhabited by property millionaires.

I'd say your comparison is more a valid observation on the difference fortunes of the Southside Vs the Northside.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121150903#Comment_121150903

Butter is a lot cheaper in Ireland. The proper stuff made from milk and salt.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121151001#Comment_121151001

Perhaps. But there are plenty of products much cheaper in the UK. Certainly in England, dont know about NI.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121150921#Comment_121150921

I read that it was the advent of the railway to dub Laoghaire had anyone with wealth move out of the city entirely. Tackereys Irish journal of the early 1840s describes the newness of those southern retreats and decay of the city.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121151029#Comment_121151029

No perhaps about it, it is a fact. You know enough about NI to make this claim:

"everyone scarpers up north to do their shopping if they live anywhere near the border."

Unless you have other research to back that up, you would have to rely on the CSO information from 2018. It is a long way from everyone. And I simply do not believe your other claim.

"A supermarket shop can easily be half the price in the UK vs Ireland."

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/cbs/crossbordershopping-households2018/

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121151091#Comment_121151091

Interesting. I think you are right that there was a move out of the city by the wealthy in times goneby.

But its interesting that the southside city centre is still very desirable and well looked after.

I think a more contemporary reason for the difference between north and south is that there is too much social housing on the northside.

Over concentrarion of social housing has created a Ballymun-esque estate around Oconnell St.

But thats the elephant in the room that our liberal govt will never acknowledge.

kirk.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121123757#Comment_121123757

Nothing worked then ? I was a child in 70s Manchester

My memories are fantastic public libraries, cheap public swimming pools , school swimming lessons, free school meals, great public transport etc etc

They had so much right imo

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121151093#Comment_121151093

I knlw plenty of folks that shop up north and I work in the UK (England) regularly.

Shopping there is much cheaper and its not uncommon to buy items for half the price they are in Ireland.

K-9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121150883#Comment_121150883

But you aren't comparing like with like. Yep, Dublin is too expensive for average wage earners to own a house, so is London.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121151597#Comment_121151597

Average salaried earners in most parts of Ireland arent able to afford homes though.

They are able to afford homes in the UK. Outside London especially.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121151873#Comment_121151873

not quite true.

while yes some salaried workers will be able to afford a house in the uk outside london, many aren't and that issue is growing and growing.

dxhound2005

I'd say that's another one of your dodgy stats. Record numbers of first time buyers are taking out mortgages in 2023. And over 1.2 million homes are already on a mortgage or owned outright.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cpp2/censusofpopulation2022profile2-housinginireland/

Charlie Weston Tue 27 Jun 2023 at 02:30. Irish Independent.

A record number of first-time buyers were approved for a mortgage in May despite property prices hitting new highs. More than 3,000 first-time buyers were approved for a mortgage last month. That represents 64pc of all the home-loan approvals for the month.This is the highest number of approvals for first-time buyers since the Banking and Payments Federation Ireland (BPFI) started recording data on mortgage approvals 12 years ago.

Irish Times

Some 2,918 mortgages were approved for first-time buyers in the month, the industry body said. This brought the volume of first-time buyer mortgages to 29,754 for the year to the end of July, with a combined value of nearly €8.4 billion. This represented a record annual high.25 Aug 2023.

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121151136#Comment_121151136

I think it's down to perceptions. When the accounts are written afterwards the decade is written off, by some, as a period of industrial strife with all that goes with that description. In reality most things worked and the majority of people carried on as normal.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121152022#Comment_121152022

nothing like the scale of issue we have here.

I know lots of people in the UK, aged 30s and 40s. They all own their own home.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121152045#Comment_121152045

The 70s was the cumulation of the decline of empire and the loss of captive markets that represented. The 80s was a period where North sea oil revenues and selling off the nationalised assets bolstered the balance sheet and gave the illusion of real prosperity - but ultimately it lead directly to the current crisis in the UK. Really the 80s represented a hidden collapse which accelerated the decline in real national productivity - it was all a wasted opportunity.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121152095#Comment_121152095

it is actually on a very similar scale to here, but it just doesn't get quite as much coverage in certain parts of the media.

but there definitely is a huge housing issue in the uk now and has been for a few years.

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121152107#Comment_121152107

A couple of points from your interesting post. One national asset was British Rail, for which I had a soft spot. Strikes notwithstanding, the railways worked for me. In the late 60's I had to travel daily by train and it was no problem. The same with the following decade. The closure of so many railway lines and stations, and selling off the land, in the 60's was a calamity. Mr.Beeching is still remembered for that. My perception of the empire was that it quietly, almost invisibly, departed. I don't recall it being a matter for discussion. It belonged to another era.

I've just remembered at junior school we had a lesson about Jomo Kenyatta, [another one locked up by the British!]. We had a poster of him on the wall. Obviously a favourite of the teacher.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121152420#Comment_121152420

The standard pattern was always to run a service down to the point where public discontent made it acceptable to suggest a sell off. I used to rely on the trains to visit in-laws in the late 80s, they were running it down at that point in preparation for privatisation and so it got to the stage where barely any journey went to plan. I learnt to drive in the end and the rest is history.

They are doing the same with the NHS. Most people cannot understand the hatred the Tories hold for the social security system.

indioblack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121152587#Comment_121152587

One story about the Beeching cuts, [1962 I think], was a question asked of a cabinet minister - it may have been Beeching himself. He was asked what would people do if their local train station was closed. "Simple", came the answer, "they will drive to the next station and catch the train from there". To which came the response that they would probably just keep on driving to their destination!

I hope the story was true - and if it was, the rest, as you say, is history. Traffic congestion, even in my rural neck of the woods, is appalling.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121151091#Comment_121151091

Ironically, one of the reasons Dublin went into decline was it becoming part of the UK. The city was absolutely thriving in the 18th century, but most of the country went backwards once it came under direct British rule.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121152820#Comment_121152820

Decline is the intention, thats colonialism for you. What most people don't see is they will do it to their own as easily as a foreigner - and hence the poverty in the North of England.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121154218#Comment_121154218

We can see what would have happened to what is now the Republic had it remained in the UK. It would be a neglected backwater these days.