Permanent food market

tom1ie

Hi all,

sitting here in Kilkenny on my lunch break in the shadow of KK castle after eating a vegetable curry for €6 from a stall and getting a coffee for €3:20 from a stall- I’m wondering is there a permanent food market that does sandwiches, crepes, tacos, Indian food stalls in Dublin CC?

It would be a great attraction and bring a lot of people into the CC I think? (As long as it’s a decent price)

What do ya reckon?

Gloomtastic!

They're trying to do something like that on Moore Street.

gipi

Isn't that the suggestion for the Iveagh market on the southside and the Fruit and Flower market at Smithfield ?

tom1ie

Honestly I’m not sure I just thought something like that is badly missing on Dublin or else I didn’t know about it!

I must take a look at the plans and see if there will be proper facilities like public paid for use toilets like they have in KK.

The setting for the market is pretty important too.

The Nal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108815#Comment_121108815

Yes. And an absolute disgrace we don't have one.

State of this.

petros1980

They've been talking about opening such a market in Dublin for more than 20 years. No idea why it hasn't happened...

London is full of such places as are many regional English towns.

Here in Warsaw at the moment there are multiple such markets:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hala_Koszyki

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hale_Mirowskie_w_Warszawie

Most major European cities have similar.

Just seems as with many things, that in Ireland its just more difficult to get things done...

GBX

Other than random shops dotted around the place there hasn't been a place like that since the Epicurean Market on Abbey Street/Liffey Street. Where Dealz is now. Shame really

artanevilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129529#Comment_121129529

Yeah that was a good one, not many people seemed to know about it and had a major addict problem towards the end. There's a couple of smaller ones around such as Eatyard at the Bernard Shaw in Phibs.

The Nal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129535#Comment_121129535

North Lotts, its even worse now. No go zone.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121126257#Comment_121126257

Wasn’t there some sort of legal challenge by the owners about this or something?

I thought it was all sorted and work had started turning it into a market but obviously not.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121108799#Comment_121108799

Moore street is just the same old cheap tat living off a reputation.

its like a poor english town market.

There wont ever be anything decent there again and DCC should just accept it and allow a proper redevelopment of the area.

DCC try everything possible to keep that market open and its a dirty, run down embarrasment of a place.

Iveagh markets is locked in legal battles, sadly.

The best potential for a city food market is St Andrews Church, which I believe Michael Wright is close to signing a deal with.

Another seperate venture is the Google HQ in Grand Canal Docks.

There should be a decent food market at Google by next summer.

Smithfield Fruit and Veg market should also be turned into an artisan food market, as per the DCC plans. But as usual, DCC takes forever to do anything so I believe we are still a year or 3 away from it happening.

Shambles really, but my money is on Google to deliver first.

There are also plans for a food market at CHQ, but DCC will likley scupper that. As they do with almost every creative idea the city imagines.

Ezeoul

Prior to the pandemic there used to be a kind of food market on the canal at Mespil Road every thursday, does that not happen anymore?

(I don't work in the area any longer).

tom1ie

The closest thing to the market that I was at in Kilkenny, that I’ve seen in Dublin was in Dun Laoghaire in the people’s park. But that’s Sundays only from 10am-4pm. (I tried posting a link but boards won’t allow it).

SDCC and DCC should have something like this but a permanent 7 day a week job.

Caranica

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132396#Comment_121132396

Still there, and in merrion square park on a Thursday too

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121129529#Comment_121129529

I was going to say that. The Epicurean food hall was brilliant, but it just didn’t do enough business. Seems people really want packets of biscuits for €2, not really good Turkish food.

downtheroad

CHQ Building is another potential

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/03/06/plan-submitted-to-turn-chq-building-into-multi-stall-food-market/

Peregrinus

I think we need to be clear about what we are talking about.

The OP is talking about a permanent food market in which you buy prepared food which you can consume on the spot — something like a food court, only it's not in a shopping centre.

But the talk fairly quickly gravitates to food markets on the European model, where you mostly buy produce and grocery items that you take home. These markets can be further divided into those in which ordinary staple produce is sold cheaply, and those in which fancier, more processed, often artisanal produce is sold, usually not cheaply. A lot of markets cover both, mostly in separate sections. These markets may also sell ready-to-eat prepared food, coffee, etc, but that's usually a pretty small end of the overall business.

In Ireland, markets selling ordinary produce would be competing directly with supermarkets. The fresh grocery trade in Ireland is overwhelmingly dominated by a small number of supermarket chains who, whatever else you may think about them, are very efficient and very competitive in price. Plus, supermarkets are conveniently located. Food markets in Europe tend to do well in a different environment where people shop a lot more at small local groceries, and where the buy relatively more of their produce in small, frequent shopping trips and relatively less in big, once-a-week shopping trips. I suspect a fresh produce food market would not be competitive in Ireland, given our shopping habits and the domination of the trade by supermarkets.

An upscale artisanal produce market might do well if it was located in the right spot. (The Iveagh Markets is definitely not that spot.)

It's telling that the Smithfield market, which was more of a basic produce market, closed with a plan to replace it with a more specialty market, but that project does not seem to be proceeding at pace (or at all?). To succeed, it not only needs to attract a critical mass of customers, but also a critical mass of merchants; you need lots of different artisanal producers who will make the commitment of renting space there to sell their produce.

magicbastarder

I suspect the demographics of the surrounding area plays a part too. The Smithfield food market is not in an area which would traditionally be thought of as high income, and that would affect the balance and viability of who might shop there.

Though it'd be interesting to know just how many people live within 500m of each site, say, which would be a reasonable 5 to 10 minute walk.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132552#Comment_121132552

Yeah tbh I was thinking a larger version of what I came across in KK which sold ready to eat Indian, Persian, spicy tacos, ice cream, crepes, etc etc.

You could also get baked goods, coffee, vegan, vegetarian.

There were also a few art stalls.

There was also busking in the area which added to the ambience.

This was outside the grounds of KK. castle so a great setting for it.

Peregrinus

Yeah. That's another kind of market again — basically a craft market, with eating and drinking facilities. People mainly go to this kind of market for the experience of being there, rather than because they want to buy stuff to bring home.

There's nothing wrong with this kind of market — they're great — but they are a far cry from the big European food markets where people go to buy cabbages or apples or olives or housewares or whatever.

The Nal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132552#Comment_121132552

Dunno. I think the The Iveagh Markets is definitely that spot. Right by Patricks and Christchurch, the Dublinia craic etc. Loads of tourists which make up a huge amount of trade from the European style markets.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132755#Comment_121132755

Well I imagine if it’s in the correct spot these sort of craft places would do alright.

The food places certainly would.

FWIW I think somewhere near Christchurch or Patrick’s cathedral would be excellent. Throw in a bit of live music and it’s a winner.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132760#Comment_121132760

I don't think it's right for the artisanal produce market - tourists don't come to Ireland to buy Irish cheeses and specialty breads. But it might be a good spot for an Irish crafts market.

The European food markets attract tourists, but they sell mostly to locals. Tourists will mostly buy small, non-perishable produce that is distinctive of the country which they can bring home as gifts or souvenirs.

AlanG

There was a good piece on Prime time last week about this very topic. A clip is below.

DCC are such a mess that Lord iveagh had to repossess the Iveagh market based on a 100 year old clause. he wanted to give it abck to DCC for free but they messed him around. He rightly got pissed off paying for security and being messed around that he handed them back the keys and pretty much washed his hands of it.

https://www.rte.ie/video/id/7558/

The Nal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121132812#Comment_121132812

Thats 50% of those food markets though. Small, non-perishable produce. Go to La Boqueria in Barcelona and its paprika, saffron, jamon. Campo Di Fiore in Rome is cheese and dried herbs for pasta, Central Market in Budapest is Hungarian paprika, sausages, goulash seasoning, French market in New Orelans is hot sauces, cajun seasoning and the like.

And yeah lots of nice fresh fish and produce for locals too. That entire area of Dublin is being transformed ("gentrified") anyway so why not add a market.

Looks like it would be cheaper to knock it down and start from scratch though.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121131019#Comment_121131019

Nah, it's constantly back and forth. Lots of meetings behind closed doors about it as well, that the councillors are keeping quiet.

It's a minimum of 15 years away at this stage. The "owner" has deliberately let the building fall into it's current state of disrepair.

magicbastarder

regarding the sort of fresh fruit markets some have mentioned; to my eyes, it's fairly simple. pick smithfield - and someone living nearby. if they want tomatoes, will they go to the market, or will they go to the lidl in smithfield?

there's also a lidl on parnell street and one on talbot street. for the north inner city, there's not a lot of people who would choose to pay more in an artisanal food market than they would in lidl. a retail trader in a market like that would not be able to compete with lidl on price.

HeidiHeidi

There's two or three completely different things being conflated in this thread -

the once-weekly takeaway food (mostly) pop-up markets, like at Baggot St bridge on the canal, Herbert Park, Marlay Park and loads of other places

the bulk markets where you'd do your weekly store-cupboard shopping (but I agree with the poster above who says they could never and probably would never try to compete with the likes of Lidl and Aldi)

the artisanal/high-end food and souvenir markets aimed mostly at tourists or the wealthier end of the shopper spectrum (such as the English Market in Cork)

From the description, what the OP was at in Kilkenny sounds like the first - a pop-up takeaway food market, and there are loads of them around the place and they do great business. But I don't think they'd sustain a full-time presence anywhere - apart from anything, they're mostly lunchtime trade where someone grabs a fresh wrap/box of noodles etc. They are a fantastic addition to the neighbourhoods they're in on the days they happen, IMO, and long may they continue to thrive!

I haven't followed the sagas in detail, but the wrangling over the Iveagh and Smithfield markets seems to involve careering around and around between the second and third (as well as getting completely tied up in planning battles and rogue developers) and getting nowhere fast - to the point that the two will have actually fallen down before anything happens. And that would be a shame.

I don't remember the Iveagh markets when they were open, but we used to do a lot of bulk shopping for our large family when we were kids in the Smithfield one - I loved going over there, it was like a little adventure. And I continued going there for fresh flowers and plants when I needed them. But again, consumers turned to the discount retailers and it just became a very uncomfortable place to do wholesale business that could probably be done far more efficiently elsewhere (I think).

I'd love to see something, anything at all being done with the two derelict market sites.

_my0pia_

Honest2Goodness in Glasnevin is open every Saturday from 9-3, veg stalls, meat stalls, café, bakeries etc.

its probably one of the best markets in Dublin, with the Green Door maybe being the second. it’s mainly indoors too!

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121135458#Comment_121135458

Looking at the photos on google reviews and the bakery looks lovely.

I wonder is there anything like this on the south side (bar dun laoghrie)?

_my0pia_

There’s the Green Door Market in Bluebell which is a similar enough setup - nothing further south side than there as far as I know!