Shannon LNG terminal plans rejected by ABP

Kermit.de.frog

We are leaving ourselves hostage to our neighbours for energy.

That's the be all and end all.

Pekarirska

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121114618#Comment_121114618

Nuclear is way cheaper than gas. Gas is the most expensive of them all to generate electricity.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121115158#Comment_121115158

this is not the case.

nuclear has been shown to be the most expensive energy generation source but the most unreliable.

you could have a single power station powering the whole country using gas, a single power station backing that up using coal, a single power station using biomass, and on and on, and all of that would be a fraction of the cost of 1 nuclear reactor in terms of construction, on going operation and decommissioning.

nuclear looks cheap but when the costs are examined along with everything else it comes out being poor value for money, a high price tag and low reliability.

Phil.x

Wasn't he just over in the UK begging that they don't cut us off if things go bad.

What a total tosser. Resign you gangster

Mr. teddywinkles

These boyos need to go and quickly.

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121113001#Comment_121113001

We can already import our gas from anywhere. There is plenty LNG capacity in the UK and Europe.

The interconnectors to GB have to be paid for by Irish gas and electricity consumers whether they are used or not.

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121113231#Comment_121113231

Gas is traded openly and we can source gas from anywhere in the world. There is plenty LNG capacity in GB and the EU.

But consumers will have to pay for the cost of the interconnectors to GB whether or not they are used. They are not subject to the open market and are effectively paid for by a levy.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121115442#Comment_121115442

So how will electricity consumers pay for this gas terminal?

Electricity consumers already pay a pso levy to replace fossil fuel with renewables and for maintenance of the grid.

This pso doesn’t increase if a new power line is built?

Jack Daw

If Eamonn Ryan as so concerned about the environment in this country he would be protesting every day in the Dail saying all immigration to Ireland must be stopped as increasing population increases our use of resources here and therefore is not good for the environment.

But of course you'll never hear an environmentalist argue against inward migration to any country because being in favour of immigration is part of the leftist doctrine and in reality they are only environmentalist because it's a leftist cause, none of them really care about the environment at all.

Eamonn Ryan has 4 children.If he genuinely cared about the environment he'd have limited himself to a very maximum of 2 and probably should have stuck with only having 1 child.Having children is by far the worst thing any human being can do for the environment.

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121115451#Comment_121115451

The cost of gas to supply electricity plants will increase. That cost increase will then be passed on to consumers.

When a new power line is built the cost is most certainly passed on to punters (but the power line brings benefits which may drive down costs in other ways).

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121115479#Comment_121115479

Ok but will the gas not just be sourced from the cheapest supply? Ie Moffat?

Pekarirska

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121115311#Comment_121115311

France has 56 nuclear reactors providing providing more than half of their electricity needs. We pay almost double for (gas generated) electricity.

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121115484#Comment_121115484

The LNG terminal will undercut the cheapest gas delivered from Moffat or the cost of transitting gas from an LNG terminal in GB by one cent per MWh.

SEPT 23 1989

Anything that helps the lives of the poor the Church of The Green and their high priests oppose

we never learn

Pekarirska

EU is planning to reduce gas demand by one third by 2030. Some of LNG terminals will become stranded assets and redundant. According to the energy think tank.

https://ieefa.org/articles/over-half-europes-lng-infrastructure-assets-could-be-left-unused-2030

€650 million can get each and every home in Kerry plastered with solar panels providing free electricity (there's about 40.000 homes in Kerry). Plenty of jobs too if that's what politicians worry about. There would be still €200 million left when works are done and paid for.

Pa ElGrande

The Irish government target is 936,000 electric vehicles and 600,000 residential premises to be equipped with electric heating sources, including heat pumps, by 2030. Corrib gone by 2030, emergency storage is whatever linepack Moffat gas pipeline can hold and capital writedown of plants like Moneypoint & Tarbert mean very little investment in reliable generation. Irish people and companies must cope with the consequences of a decline in the availability of reliable electricity generation combined with a rapid increase in demand for reliable electricity. Apparently economics does not apply to energy as far as most of the political parties in this state (and the UK) are concerned. Keep this up and by the end of the decade plants like Aughanish Alumina, the Pharma companies and Intel will be gone as future investment in production dries up. Already happening to Germans and a direct consequence of the energy crisis and economic outlook.

antoinolachtnai

A decline in dispatchable electricity generation has absolutely nothing to do with having or not having an LNG terminal.

The Germans have plenty LNG terminals. If what you say is true and LNG is the solution to our problems, then how come they have a problem?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121115500#Comment_121115500

france has 56 reactors but almost half of them are offline for various issues and reasons.

france heavily subsidizes their nuclear to the tune of hundreds of billions, + EDF like all other energy suppliers get a lot of profit from the UK market which has the most expensive energy bills in the world, meaning the price to the french consumer is cheaper.

the subsidies to other energy generation forms are tiny in comparison so are affordable but even then there are bigger priorities for the government here meaning the consumer has to pick up a bigger tab.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121116075#Comment_121116075

The first LNG terminal in Germany was completed end of 2022. Since the Ukraine war, they plan to add a few more floating terminals. Germany is a big country so it can't hide behind others the way we can.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121115505#Comment_121115505

Right.

So the LNG gas is cheaper?

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121115578#Comment_121115578

What about when it’s not sunny in winter……

Montage of Feck

The greens and their fellow travellers are seemingly intent in stymieing infrastructure investment in Kerry at every opportunity. Is it any wonder the Healey Rae's have such a hold.

Mr. teddywinkles

Deleted because I better not say what needs to be said

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121116444#Comment_121116444

It might be cheaper on the ocean. Won’t be significantly cheaper after it’s been landed.

That’s not the issue we are talking about. The issue is that the terminal will be an extra cost that consumers will have to pay for.

(There is nothing inherently wrong with paying for an LNG terminal but it’s ridiculous to claim that we would somehow be getting this terminal for free.)

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121116767#Comment_121116767

So the LNG will be cheaper but Irish consumers will be paying the cost of building and maintaining the LNG terminal through a similar PSO levy for gas customers is it?

Pekarirska

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121116462#Comment_121116462

There are not sunny days in Iceland too. Their national electrical grid actually uses no gas or any other fossil fuel at all to produce electricity all year around 24/7.

Their households paid 15 US cents per kWh of electricity while we were charged 59 cents as per globalpetrolprices.com (data for December 22).

Liquid methane (LNG) is more expensive than piped gas (natural gas) that we have now.

We should be addressing our gas obesity not feeding it. It's costly.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121117153#Comment_121117153

Iceland has massive geothermal resources.

We don’t.

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121116875#Comment_121116875

The cost of the interconnectors is paid for through the gas capacity charge that every gas meter point is billed for. The capacity charge will stay the same to pay for the ongoing cost of the interconnectors whether they are used or not. You could liken this to the PSO levy certainly.

The LNG terminal will charge a margin on the gas it imports to pay for the capital costs of the terminal.

The net result is that gas bills will go up to cover the extra cost. Depending on global LNG prices, the LNG operator may cream off a big profit.

There is no financial benefit in this terminal for consumers. There might be the benefit of ‘security of supply’ in a military situation (very little use really) or in a global supply crunch (no use at all really) and the opportunity to spend a few hundred million euros more of gas consumers’ money to build storage.

At a certain point we have to stop spending money on infrastructure which has no real long term future.

blackbox

Oil is hydrocarbon that's already in liquid form without needing massive pressure to liquify it. If it didn't exist we'd have to invent it.

It's much easier to store oil than LNG.

Furze99

Shocking degree of short sightedness.

Cordell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121117601#Comment_121117601

Yes, it's crazy to give up on readily available and reasonably clean energy sources when there is no short term replacement. Without natural gas and heating oil people will freeze in their homes, or they will be hit with huge bill, or probably it will be a bit of both, huge bills and cold homes for lots of us. My neighbour bought a huge amount of firewood, first time I saw them do it. They will burn wood this winter, they will waste a lot of energy, and they will poison the air. What for? For the green smugness?

Even a short term solution is better than nothing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121115476#Comment_121115476

You’re forgetting that eamonn doesn’t have to practice what he preaches

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121116484#Comment_121116484

not really given they won't deliver said infrastructure investment for kerry either.

clearz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121115476#Comment_121115476

There are a thousand different reasons why not going ahead with the LNG terminal is a bad idea but you have to start yakking on about immigration, which has nothing to do with it. Do you ever get tired of listening to yourselves? The fact is that the vast majority of Irish people are happy to be welcoming to immigrants who do us the pleasure of choosing our small island as their destination of choice. So you lot can jump and scream on the Internet all you want but the fact is, that isn't going to change.

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121118848#Comment_121118848

I'm not bothered by immigration however in your urge to rush in and virtue signal you decided to miss the point I was making.

If people want Ireland to be more environmentally friendly then reducing our population back to a level that is more environmentally stable would be good for the environment here.

I also made a point in my comment about people having too many children, which has zero to do wit immigration. Population growth regardless of the source is the reason for environmental damage both within a country itself and globally unfortunately you never hear so called environmentalists talk about this which proves in my opinion how incredibly disingenuous they are when it comes to protecting the environment.

mykrodot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121118848#Comment_121118848

(not to derail this thread and it is the only post I will make on this subject)

"the fact is that the vast majority of Irish people are happy to be welcoming to immigrants who do us the pleasure of choosing our small island as their destination of choice"

I don't know if you can backup the above statement but you are wrong according to all recent polls on the subject of immigration.

VM tonight show did a poll - 'Do you think the Govt is doing a good job re refugees/asylum seekers?' YES 10% - NO 90%

IT poll - Q. Do you agree or disagree with - "There is a limit to the number of asylum seekers/refugees Ireland can cope with?" A. Agree 84% - Disagree 11% - (thick 5%)

The SBP Red-C poll - 'Do you think Ireland has taken in too many refugees?' - Yes 75%

Those polls - VM tonight show, The IT and the SBP means the average across the three is 83% against the current policy. That's pretty definitive and takes any margin of error, snapshot in time arguments completely out of the equation

(again apologies, this thread is not about immigration, but Clearz's claim needed to be addressed)

clearz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121119933#Comment_121119933

That's all well and good. The only problem is I never mentioned Refugees or asylum seekers once. The fact that this wasn't immediately obvious to you says a lot tbh.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121117153#Comment_121117153

You quite literally couldn’t pick a worse comparison.

Iceland is on a massive volcano and uses geothermal to produce district heating, heat for various industrial processes and 30% of electricity.

70% is produced with hydroelectric stations that rely on the unique geography of the country - massive seasonal glacial melts, steep mountains and easily dammed valleys. It has mountains twice the height of our highest peaks and 13 mountains that are significantly higher than Carrauntoohil

Iceland also has a tiny population, 375,000 people. To put that into context there are 584,156 people in Cork! That also means they’ve vast empty places that can be dammed up for hydro with very little human consequence. Suggesting flooding all of Donegal and Kerry’s most spectacular valleys wouldn’t go down well…

Kárahnjúkar, the largest power plant in Iceland is a 630 MW hydro station, which mostly powers aluminium smelters. It's enormously controversial in Iceland, as it basically was built in one of Europe's last unspoilt wildernesses and disrupts a massive glacial meltwater system. The project was far from universally popular and was the subject of a lot of environmental protests. Also to put that in context, the combined output of the cluster of gas fired stations at Whitegate and Aghada in Cork is 1403 MW and Moneypoint is 915MW.

So basically, a country with vast hydro resources, a totally different geography and unique geothermal systems that we can’t replicate under any circumstances and with a population that is 13.5 times smaller than Ireland (26 counties)…

mykrodot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121120810#Comment_121120810

refugees, asylum seekers, immigrants.............regardless, you get my drift . Over and out.

Jizique

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121121025#Comment_121121025

Those who shout loudest about the biodiversity crisis are the same who should about the housing shortage and the need to continue expanding our cities and towns and building on our land

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121117180#Comment_121117180

The cost of the interconnectors is paid for through the gas capacity charge that every gas meter point is billed for. The capacity charge will stay the same to pay for the ongoing cost of the interconnectors whether they are used or not. You could liken this to the PSO levy certainly.

The LNG terminal will charge a margin on the gas it imports to pay for the capital costs of the terminal.

The net result is that gas bills will go up to cover the extra cost. Depending on global LNG prices, the LNG operator may cream off a big profit.

That's not true. Wholesale gas prices are set by the UK market which we are connected to. Whether an LNG terminal exists here or not will have little influence on that, though it should contribute in some small way to the overall European market by increasing LNG supply and possibly lowering prices a bit. US LNG has resulted in lower gas prices in Europe not higher. The developers of this project would have funded their own capital cost through the substantial profit they would make because of high European gas prices.

There is no financial benefit in this terminal for consumers. There might be the benefit of ‘security of supply’ in a military situation (very little use really) or in a global supply crunch (no use at all really) and the opportunity to spend a few hundred million euros more of gas consumers’ money to build storage.

While we won't be paying higher prices, they won't be noticeably lower either. It's in the area of energy security where the benefit really lies. It'll only take a prolonged Winter cold spell over North Western Europe to really put gas supplies all over Northern Europe under pressure. And we're at the end of the line, and at the mercy of the UK in particular.

At a certain point we have to stop spending money on infrastructure which has no real long term future.

There's no alternative to gas backup for renewables at the moment. The most promising prospect is hydrogen, but that can make use of the same kind of infrastructure as LNG.

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121123005#Comment_121123005

If there is a squeeze on gas supplies in Europe. us having an LNG terminal will make no difference whatsoever. it won’t give us privilileged access to cheap gas. There is loads of LNG capacity planned in Europe now. It’s a completely different situation from three years ago. There is no easy money to be made here.

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-huge-excess-lng-liquefied-natural-gas-import-capacity-expert-warn/

The interconnector is paid for out of the capacity charge. Consumers will have to pay for it whether it is used or not.

A degasification terminal is no use for storing hydrogen.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121116075#Comment_121116075

Germany’s first LNG terminal got approval in 2022 as a result of the Russian crisis. They are starting with temporary floating structures. In fact, the impact on Germany (which has huge amounts of gas storage) is a good example of why ireland should have some independent importation facility. At best, Corrib provide 30% of our supply and then only for the next 7 years. The U.K. inter connector hits the island twice, IIRC, but could easily be disrupted in the event of a reduction in supply. We are at the edge of the continent with limited access to supply. Storage (whether in Kinsaleel field or elsewhere) and an independent importation facility should be prioritised. Gas use will not disappear as we have greater availability of renewables albeit that it might moderate. The gas power stations/generators being built have already ramped up from c. 400m to approx 1bn. Let a US fund take the construction cost price risk but only allow them to recover a fixed agreed sun.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121123413#Comment_121123413

Your pricing comments are not correct because that is actually determined by whether reliance is placed on the spot or forward market. The structure of the U.K. gas market of which Ireland is an effective offshoot is based on spot prices with no essential benefit from long term supply contracts. Access to a direct importation terminal could open up the possibility of a gas pricing market on longer term fundamentals. Whether that delivers a cost advantage would depend on the expertise employed but it is not correct to say that it is irrelevant. The Irish and U.K. market prices ramped up substantially quicker than those on the continent for this very reason.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121123413#Comment_121123413

If there is a squeeze on gas supplies in Europe. us having an LNG terminal will make no difference whatsoever.

That makes no sense. If there is a squeeze in Europe, us having an LNG terminal will mean we can compete for gas at the market rate and have it supplied directly through our own terminal, as opposed to the UK supplying their own users (at the same market rate) and just leaving us at the back of the queue.

it won’t give us privilileged access to cheap gas. There is loads of LNG capacity planned in Europe now. It’s a completely different situation from three years ago. There is no easy money to be made here

This whole argument would make more sense if I was saying the state should make this investment, but it's actually the private sector saying - hey, there's this opportunity for us to supply gas from an alternative source, and we'll pay for the investment, we'll take the risk, because there is so much profit to be made in your limited market for gas. So, if there's too much LNG capacity then that's their problem not ours. But, of course, a lot of this capacity is floating terminals that can be moved from one place to another if no longer needed. The economic argument is nonsensical. This is just an ideological stance against fracked gas.

i am beyond confused how a private company spending their money to give us LNG storage to increase our energy security and independence is being claimed to be bad

antoinolachtnai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121123773#Comment_121123773

if there is a gas shortage as you describe we will not be trying to outbid other European countries for gas. That would be a ridiculous thing to do.

if we have a tanker of LNG we can direct it to a UK port or indeed another EU port and the gas will then be shipped through the transmission network to Ireland.

I understand this is unintuitive but this is the reality of how the gas network works.

The private terminal would result in gas bills (bills not wholesale prices) going up for gas consumers and prices going up for electricity consumers. This terminal is not magically ‘free’. .

prunudo

Can the interconnecters be used either direction? Can flow be reversed in one? Is the real issue, that down the line, people are afraid a private LNG terminal could also be used to supply the UK or further afield. Don't really see why this would be a bad idea either btw, just trying to rationalise the negativity against construction.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121123912#Comment_121123912

Are you listening to yourself? Gas and electricity prices keep climbing because Russia cut the gas to Europe in a fit and supplies are more scarce.

but having more access would make prices rise? Are you for real? Yeah we will probably end up paying something for the Terminal over the next number of years. But the company also had contracts with EirGrid for supplying the national grid so the benefits are still there for us.

Just stop and realise what you’re opposing and you will understand why it’s ridiculous.

All this "panic" just enforces the position that we need to get gas out of our power/heating systems ASAP.