Staying in gear at lights

Sumimasen

Herself is learning to drive and has just finished her mandatory lessons, so now we're our practising stage. Putting a strain on the relationship of course.

One thing her instructor taught her which doesn't seem right to me, when approaching a red light/stopping, she stays in 2nd gear then puts clutch in once car is coming to stop due to braking, all good so far... then once stopped keeps clutch in and goes into 1st, handbrake on. Then sits staying in gear while waiting for lights to change. This seems wrong to me, I was taught (not that long ago - 2015) when doing my pre-test lessons, to put it into neutral once stopped.

Is she going to fail the test driving like this or is there a few different acceptable ways to operate the gears according to the test?

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058315365/staying-in-gear-at-lights

For my test I was thought you had to stay in gear if you're the first car at the lights and take it out if your after the first car. Lack of progress (or some similar term) if you're sitting in neutral and the light has gone green.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155402#Comment_121155402

That was my understanding too. I think that there was also an element of using your good judgement to decide whether to put it into neutral and just moving it to first just before the light change, (ie: I know that these lights are slow, so I'll put it into neutral) but I don't recall the full detail.

Del2005

If she's getting lessons from an ADI for her test center go with what they teach. Both ways are acceptable but the ADI will know what the testers want people to do.

Princess Calla

I think if you are first at the lights it was advised to stay in first gear so you could move off in a timely manner.

Sure don't some cars cut out once you stop moving now, fuel efficiency or something.

endacl

Stop/start isn’t for fuel efficiency. It’s so they can charge you 3 times as much for a battery every time you need a new one.

#bigbatteryconspiracy

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155447#Comment_121155447

Except it is for fuel efficiency, can't use fuel if the engine is not running.

greasepalm

Only issue i see is foot on clutch can wear out clutch release bearing like on Peugeots and Citroens as plastic ones dont last long and you hear scratching noises.

I can see his point as lights can change while learner struggles .

Furze99

'Riding the clutch' we used call that :)

I think it's a driving school fix for the issue where a learner can stall when under pressure. So more likely at front on queue for junction/ lights.

But really, a relaxed driver should be able to spot the lights changing and then put in gear. If a takes a few seconds longer and someone behind is getting edgy, they're best ignored.

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155483#Comment_121155483

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155487#Comment_121155487

I think the OP is talking about having the clutch either fully in or out and using the brake to keep the car stopped, not riding the clutch. Foot on clutch shouldn't cause any wear once fully depressed.

Akrasia

I've been driving 20 years and keep the car in gear at lights except if its those road works ones that tell you you'll be waiting for x number of seconds.

It's good manners to be alert and ready to move when the lights change. The drivers who take a few seconds to react have a big impact on congestion

User1998

In my experience, you can either leave it in first or put it in neutral. Makes no difference.

kirving

Depends on the context.

If you just missed a light change, and you know you'll be waiting, out of gear.

If you can see the other side have got an amber light just as you stop, stay in gear ready to go.

Anything in between, probably best to be out of gear.

Patrick2010

Current practice seems to be get on your phone and wait for the beep from behind to let you know the lights have changed?

EchoIndia

My son's instructor told him to be in gear if you're in the first five cars.

greasepalm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155512#Comment_121155512

But it stresses out the clutch release bearing and needing a replacement sooner than later , as seen plenty in the garage.

Fully down is bearing pushing on the fingers which heats up and now many more cars have a plastic hydraulic bearing fitted inside bellhousing.

Use the handbrake as designed for and stop doing the motion forward and backwards. If stopped in traffic how many cars roll back nearly hitting the car behind because handbrake was not used.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058315365/staying-in-gear-at-lights

I did my test 18 years ago and I still remember the instructor telling me to be in gear if I was in the first 2 cars before the lights.

Never bothered doing it after test as could put the car into gear quicker than the cars in front took off but I did it for the rest.

They also tell you not to coast and if you are approaching lights in 4th gear to change all the way down to second, that a load of ****. Wasn't arsed with it after second day of passing test

The Irish car test and lessons are a joke, I learned more doing my first motorcycle lesson than I did in 10 years of driving after passing my test, 99% of Irish people can't drive for crap, no one checks their blind spots and little is given to that in the test

Rubberchikken

Often wondered at that.

If it's just changed to red as I approach I go to neutral and just foot on brake. Been doing it for donkeys.

Maybe some people are just slow.to engage, brain and gear, but there are times very few cars get through a green light by the time first car in line actually takes off.

Op. I'd say your partner should go with whatever the instructor is teaching if it goes with test requirements.

Wishing her the best. Can't be easy learning to drive nowadays.

_Kaiser_

I'll just say, automatics FTW. Personally I just stay in D almost all the time unless parked and am usually across the junction before the others start moving.

Things like this won't be an issue in a few more years as automatic EVs (and automatics in general) continue to replace manuals as the main type of car.

For learners it's even more beneficial. They can be observing the traffic rather than worrying about what gear to be in or that it'll stall when the lights go green etc

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121156414#Comment_121156414

The "motion forwards and backward" only applies when clutch is partly engaged.

If the clutch is depressed fully there is no wear on the clutch, it is totally disengaged.

Flinty997

It used to be taught to go into neutral while stopped so if hit from behind your foot won't slip and you'll launch yourself into the on coming traffic head on.

Seems like this has changed and now they taught to sit in gear.

Considering most people take forever pulling off at the lights it doesn't seem to be helping.

moonage

Novice drivers are often slower to get moving and can get flustered when under pressure, so it's probably best if they leave it in gear, especially if they're towards the front of the queue.

With more practice and increased confidence they'll be able to put it into neutral more frequently.

greasepalm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121156615#Comment_121156615

What about the bearing that presses on the pressure plate as that is part of the clutch kit also which also wears and overheats and the grease lube runs out.

chicorytip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121155467#Comment_121155467

Stopping and then starting the engine once again would require more fuel than just leaving it ticking over for a period of, say, thirty seconds or however long it takes for the lights to change. The stop/start feature is useful in a fuel-efficient sense only if you're stuck in heavy traffic and unlikely to move in the immediate future.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157007#Comment_121157007

Exactly this - I cant understand this thing of instructors telling people to keep their foot on the clutch while at lights. Im my experience it wears out the release bearing prematurely. Especially nowadays when theyre made of **** plastic instead of metal.

Foggy Jew

Maybe a tad off topic, but the system they have in the UK & Norn Iron, where the red light turns amber to indicate an imminent turn to green seems pretty logical. Gives everybody ample notice to get their ear & car in gear. Why don’t we have this here?

[Steve]

For the test I remained in-gear, following ADI guidance. The driving test is about driving how they want you to drive and not really about how you should drive.

Post-test - Come to a stop at lights, out of gear, handbrake, and stop-start shuts off engine. Start up, in gear, and off handbrake just before it goes green. Easy for your local town/city once you're familiar with timing. I'd leave it in gear if I'm going to be stationary for less than 10 seconds, waste fuel with constant restarting engine otherwise.

harmless

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157261#Comment_121157261

Yeah your about right there with modern fuel injected cars it takes about 8 - 10 seconds worth of fuel while idling to start the engine.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121156615#Comment_121156615

Actually the other way around. When the pedal is pressed it presses the bearing up against the pressure plates fingers pulling the friction plate away from the flywheel so there is wear on the pressure plate mainly. When you take your foot off the clutch it "releases" the friction plate to engage with the engine making the car move.

So in effect keeping your foot on the clutch causes excessive wear to the pressure plate. One of the main reason for clutch wear is resting your foot on the clutch pedal while driving. Even if slightly engaged / disengaged the clutch friction plate will wear out quicker.

Best practice is stick it in neutral, foot off the clutch pedal. Same while driving - keep foot off clutch pedal unless changing gears.That way your clutch will last the longest.

coolbeans

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157146#Comment_121157146

Absolutely not. Electronic fuel injection ensures no big gulp of fuel is required to start/restart. Thirty seconds idling is thirty seconds of wasted fuel.

kankicker

yes that is the correct manner . first gear hand brake on . turn green .hand brake off clutch up and away with ya , the same for motorcycle stay in first gear foot brake on green light foot brake off and away ya go . i drive both .

65535

I wouldn't bother with a handbrake at the lights - neutral - brakes on - cars behind can see you are stopped.

Easier of course with automatics - just put the foot on the brake until ready to go.

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157146#Comment_121157146

This is vastly incorrect, so much so it is laughable.

Once you are stopped for longer than ten seconds there is a benefit to having switched off then engine in terms of fuel saving over leaving it running, I'm not sure what sort of engine you are thinking off, but unless you are running quite an old car, pre fuel injection you will absolutely save fuel by switching it off rather than idling, starter will suffer negligible wear and the battery will be unaffected unless already on it's last legs.

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157252#Comment_121157252

Simple really, too many people chance going as the lights are turning red on the assumption that people will be slow moving off on green in the other lane, if people were to go bang on green there would be more collisions.

If you are the first car in the que you can always keep an eye on the lights for the other lanes and prepare for green when they go red, but not go until green of course, oh and keep an eye out for the idiots breaking the red.

kankicker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157324#Comment_121157324

this is the correct manner if you want to pass your test . if not fail straight away .

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157324#Comment_121157324

Bikes and cars don't always have the same type of clutch.

https://www.webbikeworld.com/hold-clutch-lever-lights/#:~:text=For%20safety%2C%20it%20is%20advisable,t%20pull%20up%20in%20time.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/driving-advice/7-things-you-should-never-do-in-a-manual-car/#:~:text=Leave%20your%20car%20in%20gear%20at%20a%20red%20light&text=It%27s%20much%20better%20to%20put,handbrake%20to%20keep%20it%20stationary.

Flinty997

Often wondered why cars brakes were on sitting at the lights. I assumed it was just automatics.

I see now why they are all consistently very slow to move off at the lights.

kankicker

it does,nt matter what clutch system . if you are going for you driving test you must drive like this these,s are the rules of the road . you must drive like this or fail straight away .

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121156414#Comment_121156414

More wear on the clutch release bearing fair enough, it's a long time since I've opened a clutch up I forgot there was pressure on bearings when the clutch was engaged, not the other way round.

I don't think anyone was advocating holding the car with the clutch, wish people wouldn't do it when "stopped" on a hill. Very disconcerting when you're on the bike and the car in front of you starts bouncing back and forward like it's on a spring.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157415#Comment_121157415

Heard this before.

Can you quote the bit that says this. Thanks.

[Steve]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157433#Comment_121157433

Common sight in Waterford, there's a fairly steep hill called bunkers hill. It's funny because the ones who cannot manage a hill start just bob back and forth constantly and then rev the utter shite out of their cars when setting off. Wonder how far they get between clutch replacements really.

rdhma

The Road Traffic Act generally does not dive into minutiae. An examiner has leeway to fail someone under various general headings.

"Failing to make progress" away from the lights would be one.

What if the car is rear ended while stopped in gear, knocking the drivers foot off the clutch and causing a further collision?

Princess Calla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157335#Comment_121157335

The handbrake is to stop you being pushed into a busy junction if hit from behind. Or just pushed into the car in front of you.

Look at the accident on the M50 last week..a few cars crashing into each other while waiting on the slip lights to change .

Handbrake on and keep a bit of distance from car in front of you.

Flinty997

A handbrake can only do so much.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157826#Comment_121157826

If your car is in neutral after a collision it will roll, same as in first gear.

If anything it may roll faster in neutral than in 1st depending on the strength of the collision.

In both cases its the handbrake you rely on to stop moving forward, not the gearing.

Lewis_Benson

Neutral.

Dont wear out your clutch release bearing.

artanevilla

Is this stuff actually a "rule of the road" or just best practice?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157847#Comment_121157847

Car will not roll THE SAME in neutral, as in first gear and your foot slips.

Handbrake will hold a car not in gear. You can drive with the handbrake on. At least with a manual one. Modern electronic ones perhaps not.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157984#Comment_121157984

I think the question is how exactly do they apply the rule in the test.

In a previous discussion someone suggest it had changed in recent years. But an actual rule, a quirk of the test, or driving instructor preference. I have no idea. No ones quoted anything specific. It might good technique for the test where it makes you look more ready to the tester. Since you have to exaggerate things for the test.

Sumimasen

Thanks all very informative discussion, definitely saved one less argument ha.

Might try staying in gear myself more often at lights now.

kirving

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121157146#Comment_121157146

This is incorrect.

http://www.iwilltry.org/b/projects/how-many-seconds-of-idling-is-equivalent-to-starting-your-engine/

"If you can begin extracting useful work from your engine within 1 second after starting the engine then it appears starting the engine consumes fuel equivalent to about 0.2 seconds of idling. "

That is with a specific car of course, but all with fuel injection cars use miniscule amounts of fuel to start an engine.