Deposit return scheme (recycling)

Deebles McBeebles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941516#Comment_121941516

Honestly it's astounding that not everyone can see that. It's awkward on purpose. Like collecting your change from a Dublin Bus back in the day.

Genghis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941590#Comment_121941590

Of the 5m items sold daily I am confident that as of today 4m are being charged a deposit, this is based on previously posted research of supermarkets (e.g. Tesco is 100% deposit stock, Supervalu 83%, Dunnes 80%). Also all stock being sold in the back door of all retail outlets is now fully deposit stock, it is literally the slow moving items sitting on shelves in stores that is non deposit stock.

I watch closely for data from re-turn, and they reported 5.6m items by 12 March but nothing since. I thought maybe they announce 10m items collected by 23 March (meaning daily collection of 400,000 items between 12 and 23 March), but I now wonder if they have actually crossed that yet (surely they have).

So as of now I believe we are at a maximum collection rate of around 10%, which is c. / est. 400k returns from at least 4m deposit items.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940907#Comment_121940907

i'm against the scheme too, but some of my reasons differ than yours. Mainly it's down to principle, the whole thing is forced on the public and pretty much is a piss take to manipulate the public into helping them cover their behinds with recycling numbers after they (ireland/govt) got caught with their pants down by the EU. It's greed and lack of proper recycling with our recycleables not being recycled for years that has caused all this. Their solution: bully the public into partaking, by holding their deposits as ransome. Punishment based incentive instead of a reward based one for something that should already be a VOLUNTARY activity is an absolute piss take. What next, force us into donating to charity? force us into funding gaa? i know thats quite a leap. but im trying to illustrate the "force" part, and how we have no real say in any of this other than refusing to partake and sucking up our losses or boycotting entirely by not buying the products.

Maybe these drinks manufactuers should use a different non-recycleable material. or less profitable one, or just stop making plastic in general. imagine drinking coca cola in a capri sun thingy or from a milk carton lol.

Increasing the deposit would initially be in my best interests as i'd stand to make an easy nice amount from it, but putting greed aside i would be against an increased deposit and think its a terrible idea, not just due to inspiring more tiktok sticker fraud, but also due to some bottles already costing under €1 like the sparkling water in tesco which used to be 30c-60c pre-scheme, and now currently sits at 90c-95c thanks to the deposit. is it fair that a bottle of some drinks will cost more for the deposit than the drink itself? is it fair to see some drinks double or even triple in price solely due to the deposit being added? i think not. Higher deposits is probebly whats gonna happen if enough people boycott this scam of a scheme, as its more incentive to recycle.

The products you mention without a logo that are returnable are from companies that were forced to register late with return and had their hands tied and could not change the barcode or add the logo, or just did'nt want to have the logo on alot of their already shipped out products, these companies paid extra/more than the usual suspects who have the logo now on their product as they don't have to create anythinng new and still can keep making their same thing as they are without changing anything. They paid an upfront undisclosed amount as a blanket pyment to cover all of their products that were already out on the shelves (and those which have been for years) and got bullied to also pay extra to account for anyone who may have previously stored these containers (hoarders) hoping to cash in on day 1. idk if its a forever thing or temporary, but they might pull of of ireland, keep selling their items, or maybe even bear the logo in the future, who knows.

Cash inside the RVM's is a really bad idea as the security on the machines is already not so great and shows that ___ are not willing to put too much money into these machines as it is. With money being put into the machine it would open up a whole new need for more security, and make the machines a target for criminals. Would cause more hassle than its worth, despite it being more convenient for the consumer. At the moment if an rvm is smashed up, all they can get is a roll of paper and a bunch of mashed recycle garbage.

i would however like to see the machines accept crushed cans.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941544#Comment_121941544

Ah it's been a long day, and it's only 2 o clock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941516#Comment_121941516

You're forgetting the money they will make from recycling the products. A kg of Aluminium is worth €1 for example (scrapyard.ie price) so small 330ml can weighing 20g is worth about 2c. Presumably re-turn will get a better price by skipping the middle man.

If they get a 100% return rate, so 5m products returned per day, and there's 1m of these cans per day in that mix (being generous) that's €20k/day or €7.3m/year they make for what is not a lot of effort. Remember as well that most cans are bigger than 330ml so these are minimum prices

Can't find any recent prices for PET although I do remember they soared a few years back

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941544#Comment_121941544

re-turn reinburses the store, not the supplier. The unreturned deposits, re-turn get to keep. They hope to get enough to build a recycling plant or some crap.

its like with national lottery. a person can buy a scratch card, and then return to a different store to collect the winnings from it, the national lottery then reinburse the store that paid out the small amount of winnings on their behalf.

in this case there are no actual winners as the prize is only getting your own money back (the extra you paid when purchasing the bottle/can aka the deposit) and re-turn are the national lottery company

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941727#Comment_121941727

Cans weigh about 10g and are not pure aluminium (due to the printing), and are also two mixed grades of aluminium (the lid, and the rest) so get lower prices. There's a fairly substantial income there but probably less than half of what you were thinking.

PET is worth a tiny amount, fractions of a cent a bottle at best.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941737#Comment_121941737

The figure of aluminium is taken from wikipedia, perhaps not the most reliable source, remember most aluminium cans are 500ml (beer) not quite double the weight but substantially more again

What's the figure for PET that you have?

The most recent I can find is from 2022 and shows €1.69/kg which would make it more valuable than aluminium and, according to the article, more costly than raw PET

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/recycled-plastic-prices-double-as-drinks-makers-battle-for-supplies-1.4778460#:~:text=The%20cost%20of%20flakes%20of,fresh%20recycled%20plastic%20usage%20targets.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941775#Comment_121941775

The price of reprocessed ready for re-use PET; and the price that the recyclers will pay for raw bottles (with their labels and lids still there, which are not PET) are not comparable.

This gives figures for the UK, 2022, shows that mixed bottle value went from as low as £80 a tonne to a high of £430 a tonne over the year - doesn't specify if that's just bottles or bottles with the associated HD/LDPE from lids and labels.

edit: just noticed they've 2023 figures, and they're even worse - £20-£200/tonne range

Small water bottles, the type that would be most desirable to stop people using, are often only about 6g, so you really need a lot to make a tonne.

randomuser02125

I had no great opinion about the scheme until the weekend just gone. Machines seemed to have red screens around 1/4 of the time but you could live with that, just walk back to the car with the bag. Anyway, went to a Lidl I occasionally use on the way home and went to pay with a return voucher from my usual Lidl. Not accepted. Cashier explained that the voucher is only valid for the shop where the return voucher is issued. I genuinely could not believe it, remarked it was unbelievable to the cashier, who agreed with me. A teenager next in line piped up that it was f'n ridiculous.

Next day I went to my usual Lidl with a bag of 6 2L bottles. First 5 no problem, 6th one gets stuck. Had to go in and get a worker who described the whole scheme as a complete pain. 5 minutes later I had my €1.25 voucher but I asked what happened to my 25c for the last one as well. The worker went in and retrieved it and I got my voucher. So around 15 minutes returning 6 bottles.

I've no idea how often we can expect jammed machines to cause the second problem. But the first problem is just ridiculous to me, or did no-one else assume vouchers would be good for a whole company?

mod

im aware there’s a “trick” with printing barcodes to scam the machines lads but we won’t be endorsing that craic here. Any discussion of that will lead to a deleted post and a warning.

Repeated offenders will be banned.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941690#Comment_121941690

I guarantee someone will come on and dispute your figures.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942366#Comment_121942366

2 months ago or even a month ago everything was being disputed and jumped on. Its fast getting to the point there's no disputing this mess.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942394#Comment_121942394

And yet inexplicably some will continue to do so.

ozmo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940819#Comment_121940819

Wonder how much power these large things use - with the 24/7 screens, scanners, industrial pc running inside and very powerful motors and trash compactor.

Much more I would guess than the energy you could recover from the relatively few plastic bottles It takes in.

John_Rambo

You'll get used to it. Just like you did the smoking ban in the workplace, recycling your glass and using durable bags for shopping instead of paying for plastic bags.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942457#Comment_121942457

Instead of a voucher the RVMs should just print out this picture.

Sconsey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942505#Comment_121942505

The difference being the smoking ban prevents peoples exposure to second-hand smoke, recycling glass actually leads to some glass being recycled, getting rid of single use plastic bags got rid of single use plastic bags....this scheme does not promote a reduction in plastic use, it does not mean any increase in recycling will happen (still incinerating plastic as usual), it has lead to stealth price increases and the technical implementation is a shambles (broken machines, return logs bottles refused, deposits charged and returns not accepted).

If the scheme was focused on reduction I would be all for it, if it was for increasing the volumes of plastic recycled (not just collected for incineration) I would be all for it, if it was implemented in a reliable way I would be be more inclined to go along with it.

Genghis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942394#Comment_121942394

Indeed. I've noticed it's mostly silence that the slow numbers are met with these days.

I think even those on here who were very much in favour of this scheme at launch know it is not exactly going to plan so far, and that fig leaf explanations like lag, transition, limited data etc are starting to fade.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942871#Comment_121942871

I'd think its more than only those desperate for it to fail are still banging the drum about it failing (it won't).

Come June when everythings in scope this thread will be dead; and a few users will have slunk away from it as their predictions of failure came to naught.

ForestFire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942457#Comment_121942457

Let's hope they've made these machines to be recycled.......just in case.....

Genghis

@L1011 just for avoidance of any doubt I do not wish for this to fail, and have never done so.

I strongly disagree with DRS, and am not participating in it as a result, but I certainly never expected the scheme to fail, below is a comment showing me saying same.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121602416/#Comment_121602416

Whereas at that time you and I would have completely shared the expectation that this will bed down and be like other countriy's experience, I am not as sure anymore.

Do you really believe that a daily 10% collection almost 2 months in indicates that this will take off in 2 more months time? Do you think the great public are politely waiting for the final few items of old stock to disappear before they en masse begin using it? I expect 95% of the population have pad a deposit, why are they not claiming them back yet do you think?

Imho daily collection rate should already be 30-40% minuimum and still be growing. It was widely believed getting to base 1, i.e. 60-70% (displacing recycled at kerbside) would be straightforward, and DRS would then eat in to the rest so that we hit the 90% goal. That is not happening.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121942991#Comment_121942991

The stats we have for returns are two weeks old; and while your checking of supermarket websites is giving figures that we otherwise don't have a source for, the reality is there are still plenty of out of scope items in Tesco despite the website showing 100% compliance, let alone the other shops. So there isn't any solid basis to make a 10% estimate, and I'd say it is actually closer to 30% based on what I'm seeing.

This thread has all the people complaining and griping on it; so is not representative of reality. If you read this thread, you would assume that it is more common to find a broken/full RVM than a working one which is simply untrue.

I'm yet to see a Britvic (Pepsi/Club) item in scope; Coca Cola Ireland in many shops is definitely 100% already - but one small shop near me has only just stopped selling Santa branded bottles let alone pre-Feb stock, and he shifts quite a lot. No idea where the feck he stores it all cause the shop is tiny. Loads of Scots live near me so everywhere sells Irn Bru, its all non-returnable still. Local brewery (Farringtons) has only a few lines in scope, rest is still old stock.

What I buy is probably 90% in-scope but what's on shop shelves near me, in terms of shelf space, might still be 50% or less; likely higher in terms of volume due to Coca Cola's dominance, but not 90%.

I expect we're going to see people complaining about having to wait a few minutes at a machine next week due to people offloading the results of the 3/4 day weekend; and when all those are ingested I'd expect another press release on volume.

Ken Tucky

Long time lurker..

Finally brought my cans back tonight. Drove to one shop..both machines out of order. Drove to the next shop and off I went. 3 cans rejected. No matter what I did, I couldn't get the bar code to read. All cans were from the same multi pack.

This is nonsense, it really is.

Why business isn't expected to row in with recycling is beyond me.

Households do recycling. How many of us work in a small business. The bin in our canteen is always full of cans and bottles and this goes straight into general waste. No onus on the company at all. Thousands upon thousands of sme's all over the country doing the same thing. Building sites with skips..

Buts it's the households with a perfect recycling bin sitting by that are the culprits. So much BS in this country.

Also, they chose aluminium because they wanted a slice of the pie.

chrisd2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121940186#Comment_121940186

Piss poor article, any deposit paid if bottle legitimately in scheme is recoverable.

chrisd2019

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121941366#Comment_121941366

It makes no difference to the consumer how the system works, all that matters is that you get back your original deposit.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943309#Comment_121943309

from my experiance of the latter as mentioned a couple of posts back, the machine spits out your receipt when full and then says something like out of service or machine full, and either a red hand or a red stop sign.

The first situation you mentioned someone earlier today mentioned here going through something simular and then having to get one of the workers to come unclog the machine and gave him the receipt that did'nt come out (which i was surprised with). From my own experiance and alot of the other people that expressed the same thing here, if the machine jams when you're using it we're pretty much screwed and cheated out of the money for the bottles and cans that has already went into the machine. Someone also mentioned yesterday or today that there's a tip for lidl iirc where if you touch the top of the screen it tells you how close to being full the machine is. Not sure if this works in all machines or just lidl machines.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943309#Comment_121943309

What should happen in either case is that a shop assistant asks you how many items you've put in and pays you the deposits.

Its called business, goodwill etc.

nachouser

It's a troll pretending to be Jim.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121943451#Comment_121943451

Thanks for the heads up.

I hope Jim is still to the good 😊