Deposit return scheme (recycling)

mickdw

There are products now on the shelves that don't have the logo that are acceptable at re turn machines.

I bought orange juice and was told at the til that there was a charge applied to it. When I looked, I thought I'd been had but checking on the return website, the barcode comes up being suitable for rebate so all good. Funny thing is it's the same barcode as bottles bought weeks ago so there is going to be abit of a mess for a couple of months but should straighten out by June.

sligeach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121755524#Comment_121755524

Tell me about it. I had to fill up the swimming pool with carbonated water this weekend. Stung the eyes of me.

vafankillar

it's funny how anytime there's some sort of tax policey or just any nanny state bs thats used in a different european country we're able to copy it & it's all "well it works in germany! why can't it work here" etc but any policy in other european countries that would broadly benefit ordinary people it's all "we're not germany. we can't just carbon copy policies from other countries & expect them to work here!"

vafankillar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121755725#Comment_121755725

saw someone on twitter say they got €7 back the morning the machines were turned on with old bottles/cans. initially thought they were taking the píss but noticed the above myself, so wonder if they were just lying about it so everyone would think only new barcodes work lol

vafankillar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121755541#Comment_121755541

yeah another wild aspect of it. if i get food after a few pints in dublin city, i'm supposed to carry my empty can home with me? baffling stuff. surely an exemption should apply here or something or the onus on the cafe etc.

not sure if the drink machines like the have in mcdonalds etc would be financial viable for small food businesses but thats the only thing i could think of to make the situation not insane.

Skyrimaddict

I saw two machines over the weekend, both full and not accepting new bottles etc.

Who is meant to keep on top of keeping them free for use?

magic_murph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121755933#Comment_121755933

I was under the impression that anything bought in cafes was exempt.

Its a confused scheme.

Brought in to tackle litter - a better solution for that would be bigger and more bins readily available around the towns and park lands and invest in getting them serviced on a regular basis.

People doing a weekly shop don't litter, the shop and go home, so having this additional fee / deposit applied is farcical.

Its like there was problem A and they implemented a solution for problem B.

For me its a system I wont use. It will probably cost me about 100e a year based on the amount of cans and plastic bottles used and I can happy to waste that money rather than support this madness.

The whole this has been communicated poorly, implemented poorly and just makes no sense.

Daith

Sorry, but going from a bottle return scheme to suggesting we shouldn't even be selling bottled water is a bit strange.

SteM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756857#Comment_121756857

Cafes can choose to handle products 1 of 2 ways

1 - Do not charge deposit but get the item back from the customer when it's finished and claim the refund themselves.

2 - Charge you the deposit and let you keep the item to claim the refund yourself. My understanding is if they choose this option they must have signage up telling you where the nearest return point is.

My guess is most will go with option 2, which is probably easier for them but not for the customer who will probably end up binning the can/bottle instead of bringing it with them to find the return point.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121755355#Comment_121755355

Bottled water as a commodity came about from very bad water management and lack of supply in public areas. Maybe we should start a QUANGO to properly manage our water....

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121755684#Comment_121755684

In this thread and others I keep hearing it repeated that we copied the system in Germany. If even Eamon Ryan is aleady talking about version 2, then did we copy their version 1 system?!? Because if we copied their system exactly, we wouldn't be having these teething problems. I stand by my theory that we didn't copy the German system but instead reinvented the wheel.

lainers99

The one I passed was out of order. Meanwhile I have a box in my car with bottles and cans to return, not sure what will be accepted back or not

Genghis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121755652#Comment_121755652

OK, so are you thinking the expected reduction in SUP will come from 150ml-250ml kids bottles being withdrawn from the market due to the cost of DRS? You haven't mentioned any other ways single use containers will reduce.

Would you agree that kid size drinks won't be really significant in unit count terms, i.e. they are a tiny part of the overall volume of almost 2bn single use containers sold in Ireland? [I wholeheartedly agree they should never have been introduced]

In relation to beer, I am aware of the 440ml for craft beer, but I didn't mention 440ml in relation to items currently sold in that size. 500ml, as you may know, is still the standard for mainstream beer cans in ROI. My point is if Diageo or Heineken were to decide they would prefer to supply the market in 440ml containers, so that say a 24-pack of 440ml cans would maintained the old price point per slab after DRS, that would increase their can output for the same volume sold.

Were it to happen, that would likely increase single use containers. There is plenty of precedent there already for beer companies tinkering with sizes- 18x300ml bottles were introduced to have a 'slab' of beer saleable at lower price points; in the UK, I think the whole market has moved to 440ml cans, etc.

So I think we will see moves like this, meaning less volume per container.

I just can't see how you would expect Re-turn / DRS to do anything to reduce single use containers, as you mentioned yesterday. In fairness, correct me if I am wrong, but I am not sure reducing single use containers is a part of their remit either - their remit is simply a collection ratio, nothing to do with reduction of sale into market.

There is currently no incentive whatsoever for producers or retailers to pivot from single use container supply, there are incentives for them to sell more units.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757356#Comment_121757356

Yes I think your theory is correct... Eamonn Ryan was likely asleep while this was being discussed

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757442#Comment_121757442

Which RVM was out of order? Would be good to keep track of them... Did you say it to somebody in the shop?

Twee.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757204#Comment_121757204

I don't think that's quite right - #1 is only if the person is dining in as the can/bottle stays on site. #2 They should charge you the deposit only if you're getting takeaway. It's taken off site to be consumed and therefore becomes the responsibility of the consumer. From my understanding there's no provision for selling a can to be consumed on site and charging a deposit.

Genghis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757204#Comment_121757204

Or Option 3, aw I suspect will prevail. Which is charge per option 2 and also claim back per option 1 when most of your customers leave their cans behind them on the table.

SteM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121758222#Comment_121758222

https://re-turn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Hospitality-Summary-Info-Guide-1.pdf

Maybe I'm incorrect. We were talking about Cafes so I assume 'eat in' rather than takeaways.

All Hotels, Restaurants, Bars and Cafes (HORECA) are required to register with Re-turn and will automatically be eligible for a Take Back Exemption once completed. This is based on the premise that the majority of drinks containers are purchased for on-site consumption. A Take Back Exemption means that a business is not obligated to take back in scope drinks containers from consumers. In this case, businesses must clearly display the Take Back Exemption notice which provides a QR code and website details for nearest Deposit Return point locations. Businesses that primarily operate as “Food to Go” Retailers will have the option to apply for a Take Back Exemption. The criteria for this will apply to premises with a store size of 250 sq. metres or under. Definition of store size may be accessed here. Online Retailers also have the option to apply for a Take Back Exemption, subject to these Retailers displaying a QR Code and Re-turn website address on the receipt / sales documentation, allowing customers access to Deposit Return points locations. 

Genghis

@SteM

So I think that means hospitality businesses must charge the deposit if they sell in scope items. They are only exempt from having to take the item back and refund the deposit.

I.e. in your earlier post it is option 2 only (they cannot legally do your option 1).

I think with option 2 cans will be left behind and there is nothing stopping the owner or staff taking these to an RVM for some free cash. I guess some cafes will move to glass bottles or fountains (like pubs do).

Interestingly I did spot a sign up in McDonalds last week about this (McDonalds sell some juices and bottled water in PET bottles), it had a compliant QR code too. I'll try get a pic next time I pass there.

Daith

Sorry, what? If I get a can in a cafe, they can charge me the levy but I have to take it to a different shop to recycle because the cafe is exempt from having to take it back?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759307#Comment_121759307

To be completely fair to McDonald's their plastic bottles had the re-turn logo (and deposit) from day 1 without ambiguity.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121759957#Comment_121759957

Correct

Not sure if every cafe etc will charge the levy but all of them can

vafankillar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756855#Comment_121756855

we haven't got our machines in yet (not sure who's to blame on that one) but we're been told it will be part of our jobs now, which is unreal cos we barely have enough staff/hours in work to get enough done as it is.

vafankillar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121756857#Comment_121756857

i think this is it. i just can't see wrap my head ahead going through all this effort & time consumption to save €50/100 euro a year. might work one night delivering take aways at a local chinese\dominoes to make that up & just use the green bin for the rest of the year lol

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760188#Comment_121760188

Recent surveys showed that about 8% wouldn't bother with the returns so you'd be joining that minority at least

Purple Mountain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121757204#Comment_121757204

This crossed my mind today. I had lunch with a few friends. There were 3 cans left on the table after us.

I couldn't imagine bringing them home in my bag, so some establishments would play the system I'm sure and charge AND return cans left behind.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760423#Comment_121760423

I agree most people out for a meal won't want to take a slightly leaky can home in their handbag or coat pocket.

Maybe restaurants will switch to glass bottles or soft drinks on tap to avoid the issue altogether.

Purple Mountain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760440#Comment_121760440

I hope there won't be a market for wayward youngsters cafe hopping lifting empty cans from uncleared tables 🤣🤣

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121753818#Comment_121753818

i already thought that's where the recycled paper inside toilet roles came from? no? i accepted that without complaining at all. after all it would explain the color of the paper. recycled paper is often a darker color when compared to its fresh un-recycled counterpart. but anyway its good to see a circular economy being active and seeing things being re-used and re-cycled. That is a good thing. i don't mind where my cardboard box is recycled from. i'm not fussy.

As for the contaminated water, its considered waste water anyway, after cleaning or bathing the materials, its obviously not going to be re-used for cleaning anything else at that point. it goes without saying. thats a given.

BoardsBottler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760448#Comment_121760448

indeed, sadly that has already been brought up 50 or 60 so pages back in the other DRS thread. Worst case scenerio i imagine would be an in-house thing where you pay for the cans + deposit, and then they clean up the tables and pocket the deposit/return the cans themself. if you pay a deposit on a can, you have every right to deny them taking it from you.

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121760488#Comment_121760488

Easily done, a quick squish of a can and let them recycle it if you don't want to carry an empty can around until you get home or rip the plastic wrap off a plastic bottle if it has one. Either way it ends up being recycled (I would hope) without someone capitalising on your deposit.

ottolwinner

Do cans have to be uncrossed? What happens if they get damaged.

the return me logo isn’t a very strong. Image to spot either on the cans bottles.

this has all the hallmarks of a hangover decision making meeting.